Finally, the SNP start talking about real issues….

…they want to keep the pound if Scotland gets independence. Just watched John Swinney on Newsnight try and explain how he is going to make the British government give it to him for free… Laughable!

With any luck people might actually wake up and smell the coffee (or bulls**t).

Before anyone asks, I’m a proud Scot.

Isle of Man uses the pound doesn’t it? Not technically part of the uk though? Own parliament, laws, currency?
Possibly doesn’t contribute quite as much revenue to HM govt though..

So how, exactly, is anyone going to stop us using the pound? It’s an internationally traded currency.

And the irony of being lectured about economic stability by Gideon Osborne – where do you start?

Will all this currency upheaval business affect the price of Tunnock’s Tea Cakes in Cornwall?

So how, exactly, is anyone going to stop us using the pound? It’s an internationally traded currency.

Are you suggesting that Scotland should use the £ without a monetary union agreement then ?

With no Central Bank backing ?

Not very wise 😐

(And never going to happen either, unless Scotland want to model their economic policy on Kosovo)

why the hell do they was a poorly valued currency, have you seen how little a £ gets you these days. Looking forward to returning with my Au$’s soon

Sponging-Machine – Member
Will all this currency upheaval business affect the price of Tunnock’s Tea Cakes in Cornwall?

Coincidentally, I gave a Halfords employee two boxes of Teacakes today in return for a bike box.

And at the risk of having to admit to not having watched the borefest that is Newsnight, how is sharing a token of monetary value, valuable? Why should the pound suddenly be worth less north of the border? Pay for the privilege? Nae chunce.

I think it’s an elaborate bluff by Salmond. He wants refusal, so then he’ll demand Scotland’s share of the reserves of the Bank of England (it’s the British Bank) and set up our own currency, the bawbee and the poond.

There’s actually only one issue. Everything else is peripheral and can be sorted out once the big question has been answered.

Do we want self-determination, or not?

I don’t think its that simple Btian, whether its a good thing can only be determined by considering the ramifications.

I take it you’re a “yes”? – seems to me that camp take your view – a decision based on the heart not head.

I laughed when I heard this on the news, made the SNP sound a bunch of amateurs – I’ll concede I am no political expert tho.

epicyclo – Member
I think it’s an elaborate bluff by Salmond. He wants refusal, so then he’ll demand Scotland’s share of the reserves of the Bank of England (it’s the British Bank) and set up our own currency, the bawbee and the poond.

Didn’t There use to be a Bank of Scotland?
I dunno about the reserves of the bank of england, I but I’m sure they want scotland to take their share of the national debt. I think it comes to 125billion for scotland on a per capita basis.

I understand that for a lot of the pro camp the choice is for self determination or not.

However all these details do need to be worked at beforehand and that is where Salmond becomes your normal politician ie evasive and blustering. The anti camp of course are doing very similar scare tactics.

As a scot living in England I will not have a vote but am still following it with interest.

More spin from either side to come

The Isle of Man is a British Crown Dependency. Queen is still the head of state. The UK government is still responsible for foreign policy and defence. I was unaware this was the model the yes camp are after.

If it’s a good thing for the yes campaign to explain what they will do in the event that they win the referendum, it’s surely also a good thing that the UK government should also explain their position in the same circumstances.

this the nub. the scots get to vote on been a part of this country but even if they dont they want to then pick and choose from thier own menu which bits they want to keep/ discard

out is out.. in means in, make a choice and stop the hot air..

Isle of Man prints its own pound note which like Scottish one are legal tender throughout the United Kingdom. But try changing a Scottish 10 pound note at a foreign exchange and you tend to get a major mais non!
The regional banks are supposed to lodge funds with the B of E before firing up the printing presses and there is such a thing a million pound note for this purpose.

Bruk – I agree, how long have these guys had to think about these issues? Their whole political lives. And when pushed they got defensive and aggressive. Classic bully tactics. If they are this unprepared now, heaven help Scotland if there is a yes vote. Seats of the pants stuff may work for Sean Connery, but Salmond doesn’t past it off as well.

Thm Who is bullying who?

out is out

Which roughly translates as Oot is oot.

Surely the model for this isn’t the Isle of Man, rather it’s the only other country to have left the UK – the Republic of Ireland. They struggled along with the pound for many years until they realised their economy and the UK’s were going in different directions at which point they let the Punt float from Sterling. Then they joined the Euro and it’s all been fine since. Oh, wait…

So how, exactly, is anyone going to stop us using the pound? It’s an internationally traded currency.

The Scottish government could certainly continue using the pound without any kind of monetary agreement. But they would have no say in the control of the Bank of England. So if the BoE decided to set interest rates or print/withdraw money from circulation in a way that went against the interests of Scotland, then the Scots would just have to suck it up.

EDIT: there will be someone along in a moment saying that the Scottish banks have deposited a few £billion to ensure that Scottish pound notes are convertible. That doesn’t help.

I really don’t see how you can be independent, if you use a currency who’s value is decided by another countries fiscal and monetary policy.

Just like the european union and NATO issues, Salmond really hasn’t thought this through has he?

Fwiw, I love Scotland and most of the Scots I’ve met, and I just hope that when people vote, they vote for sensible, well thought out reasons, not just vote yes to stuff the English or the Tories.

I really don’t see how you can be independent, if you use a currency who’s value is decided by another countries fiscal and monetary policy.

Not that unusual:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollarization

Doesn’t really sound like independance to me. From what I’ve read there seems to be a desire by Salmond to make arbitary decisions about what he’s going to cherry pick from the union to support his empire. There seems to be much made of the headline grabbing statements, but the actual mechanics of how it would really work seem to be somewhat thinner on the ground.

I can’t see him getting enough votes to see it through anyway

However all these details do need to be worked at beforehand and that is where Salmond becomes your normal politician ie evasive and blustering. The anti camp of course are doing very similar scare tactics.

Well, except that there was already a report by the Fiscal Commission Working Group – who are independent unlike the Treasury – which concluded that keeping the pound would be best for both sides. Funny now the sensible discussions don’t get reported, and the bluster does.

Really, it’s hard to work stuff out beforehand when the No camp refuse to discuss what would happen if they lose.

Doesn’t really sound like independance to me.

Sounding more like a version of devo max to me.

Is it really self determination if you leave control with the Bank Of England?

Problem for Scotland is the lack of appealing options, Euro isn’t looking so great at the moment either. And setting up a new currency looks volatile at best. I’d guess at a lot of money leaving Scotland for more established options?

It wouldn’t surprise me if all this had more to do with bargaining chips when it comes to negotiating the details of independence.

Doesn’t really sound like independance to me. From what I’ve read there seems to be a desire by Salmond to make arbitary decisions about what he’s going to cherry pick from the union to support his empire.

If we get independence, pretty much the whole reason for the SNP’s existence vanishes – and then we can vote for whoever we want. Scottish Labour, Scottish Greens, Scottish LibDems, even Scottish Tories could get in power. And with a voting system that’s much more democratic than Westminster, they probably will.

If anything’s an empire, it’s the UK – ruled by politicians a small minority voted for, looking after their own interests, not accountable to anyone.

And how is the SNP’s stance different to how the UK operates in Europe? The UK has many binding treaties with the EU and other countries covering a wide range of things from finance to law to the environment. How is that different to Scotland having binding agreements with rUK?

Just like the european union and NATO issues, Salmond really hasn’t thought this through has he?

No he has thought it through, he just wants his haggis and be able to eat it.

He wants every part of independence that works for him and all the other parts that don’t to be picked up by the rest of the union.

His biggest problem is that in the face of evidence that independence will either be incredibly painful, at least for the next 15 to 20 years (arbitrary figure there) or just plain unsustainable, he won’t acknowledge either of those two outcomes but rather bluster on claiming it’s all a conspiracy by the UK government to defraud him of his nationalistic right.

He’s too deeply invested in the idea and too arrogant and selfish to admit that independence, while possible, might actually be very painful.

teamhurtmore – Member
Bruk – I agree, how long have these guys had to think about these issues? Their whole political lives. And when pushed they got defensive and aggressive. Classic bully tactics. If they are this unprepared now, heaven help Scotland if there is a yes vote. Seats of the pants stuff may work for Sean Connery, but Salmond doesn’t past it off as well.

Posted 1 hour ago # Report-Post

One of the problems is that Westminster is refusing to discuss ANY of the details of indy at all.

IOM comment was just an initial thought- as always, Ben seems to have formed much more constructive points than me.
Not the Edinburgh defense btw but re the comment about the Queen, is there not talk of keeping her head of state as well? In a similar fashion to other countries in the Commonwealth?

Any chat at the moment is just folk setting out their stall for negotiations (despite the UK Govt saying it won’t pre-negotiate). Note that the words used are always “might” and “could”, never “would” or “won’t”.

As bencooper says, truly independent analysis seems to show that it would be in the interest of both countries to retain a currency union. After all, each will likely remain the others major trading partner and there will remain a substantial amount of cross-border travel.

Links to that evidence please.

If we get independence, pretty much the whole reason for the SNP’s existence vanishes – and then we can vote for whoever we want. Scottish Labour, Scottish Greens, Scottish LibDems, even Scottish Tories could get in power. And with a voting system that’s much more democratic than Westminster, they probably will.

You’ve not actually lived with a PR voting system, then? For my money it’s a lot less democratic – you end up with party lists, stuffed with unaccountable yes-men and -women, who owe everything to their party and nothing to the voters. Sort of like safe constituencies, everywhere.

Not the Edinburgh defense btw but re the comment about the Queen, is there not talk of keeping her head of state as well? In a similar fashion to other countries in the Commonwealth?

The Queen is queen of Britain and the Commonwealth – she’s as much the queen of Scotland as she is of England, and considering how much property she owns up here and how much time she spends up here I don’t think there’s any doubt she’s stay queen of Scotland.

The union of the crowns predates the union of Scotland and England by about 100 years, after all.

As bencooper says, truly independent analysis seems to show that it would be in the interest of both countries to retain a currency union. After all, each will likely remain the others major trading partner and there will remain a substantial amount of cross-border travel.

Yes, that’s about right.

Pre-referendum there’s a lot to be gained by throwing out scare stories. But in a post referendum world where the “yes” camp wins. Is the rUK really going to make any changes that have a negative impact on trade? Of course they bloody won’t, they’ll just shrug and go back to trying to make money.

Everything else is peripheral

that is so wrong.

Economy, education, health, defence… These are the absolute core issues that define everything.

When I vote I will be voting on behalf of my kids and thinking about what is best for them. If Salmond can prove that they will grow up in a more prosperous, safer, healthy and well educated society than that if we remain in UK then great, he will get my vote. I will not be voting based on some romantic ideology that independence is better because he says so.

So far though it seems that most of the campaign is based around exactly that, a romantic idea of self determination and ‘proud scots’ without any real substance, evidence, facts or policy to back things up.

It is not good enough to say we will sort this detail out later on after the vote.

You’ve not actually lived with a PR voting system, then?

I live in Scotland – so yes I have. Under the Scottish system, we get a wide range of people in the parliament – it actually makes a difference who I vote for.

Under the Westminster system, it doesn’t – this constituency always votes Labour, always has, always will, so my vote is useless. But even more than that, Scottish votes haven’t decided the outcome of a Westminster election since at least the War – the votes of every person in Scotland don’t matter to who gets in power.

Compared to that, pretty much any system is better.

Fiscal Commission Working Group – who are independent

Independent? they were assembled by Salmond, although that does seem to be within the SNPs definition of independence 😉

If Salmond can prove that they will grow up in a more prosperous, safer, healthy and well educated society than that if we remain in UK then great, he will get my vote.

Turn it around – can the No camp prove any of that? No. And with the current government in power, it looks pretty unlikely.

We have to deal in basics – the future is unknowable but we can start from first principles. Would Scotland survive and thrive on it’s own? Yes – even the Treasury and the Tory government agrees on that one. Would Scotland be better off if Scots had a say in the running of Scotland? Absolutely – we’ve already shown that by the way that Scotland is being insulated from many of the slash-and-burn tactics of the Tories. Would it be better for Scots to stand on our own two feet and stop blaming England for everything? Too right.

I have a daughter. I look at what successions of UK governments have done over my lifetime – Thatcher, then Blair, the the Coalition – and I want better for her. The only way that can happen is if my vote can change something, and the only way my vote can change something is if Scotland is independent.

I live in Scotland – so yes I have. Under the Scottish system, we get a wide range of people in the parliament – it actually makes a difference who I vote for.

Fair enough, my experience of PR here in Spain is that it’s a big steaming pile of crap, there’s no direct representation, you vote for a party list. I know who the top 2 or 3 people are, the rest are a mystery.

His biggest problem is that in the face of evidence that independence will either be incredibly painful, at least for the next 15 to 20 years (arbitrary figure there) or just plain unsustainable

Of course there would be pain in separation, but can you give evidence of your claims of unsustainability?. If Scotland is such a millstone round the UK’s neck, why are the Tories desperate to keep us? For the votes?. All this is desperation from the unionists, and should be treated as such, and people need to remember that it’s self determination we’ll be voting for, not Salmond.

I along with everyone else have no idea what the future would bring if we were independent, but I see how the future is going if we remain under a government that can’t see further north than the midlands, and it’s not very appealing. And to the earlier comparison with Ireland, it wasn’t the euro which destroyed Ireland’s economy.