FFS – less than a day and the "tighten the gun laws" knee-jerk starts…

**** Paxman, straight on the bandwagon.

If gun laws work, how did this happen?

If there were no gun laws, someone would have had a gun and shot him, thus saving several lives.

Well, given that this kind of thing is so common in the US that it doesn't even make the state news let alone national news, perhaps people have a point about gun control.

Although I thought we had quite strict gun control anyway?

There was no need for the last legislation. You can't legislate against everything.

Knee-jerk reaction again.

If there were no gun laws, someone would have had a gun and shot him, thus saving several lives.

Yeah, like in all the US school shootings, where hardly anyone gets killed.

Oh, hang on, they happen all the time, loads of.people get killed, the killers don't get shot until too late. Bugger, maybe that is a stupid argument after all.

The US has third world gun death rates, in the richest country in the world. Are people like you really so sick that you want that in this country too?

Joe

Nothing is 100% secure. The big picture needs to be looked at, ie anything involving money, drugs etc.

I held guns legally many years ago, including SLR's semi-auto pistols etc and had to stop the hobby because of some stupid idiots. Since those days we've had tighter gun control and this sort of tragedy still goes on and show it shows those controls failed. Guns will find there way into this country, just as drugs do and it'll never get stopped. All it will do is punish responsible gun-owners as it did then and the dreamers will believe they've stopped it from happening and then one black day in the future it WILL happen again! Paxman's a cock of the highest order anyway.

epicyclo – Member

"If gun laws work, how did this happen?"

Hadge – Member

"Since those days we've had tighter gun control and this sort of tragedy still goes on and show it shows those controls failed."

Look, I like guns, they're fantastic tools and generally interesting and fascinating kit. But you can't say "How did this happen" without asking "Has it prevented any other such killings". It most likely has IMO but you can never know. You don't look at the few that happen, you consider how few do happen.

Used to do a lot of shooting myself when i was younger. This one will make the headlines, and doubtless call-me-dave will put in some pointless knee-jerk legislation to pacify the daily mail. But the massive majority of shootings – low-level drug dealer shoots low-level drug dealer will be carried out with converted starter pistols by scrotes. They just won't make the front pages

What hadge said.

I'm sure having tighter controls will stop the Real IRA/Al Quieda (spelling?) getting hold of guns. Banning stuff always stops criminals getting hold of it.

Might have taken it to extemis but you get the point.

Personally I'm in favour of banning all firearms anyway, far too many people out shooting rabbits/pheasents etc round here. That chap had a shotgun, hopefully they'll be banned soon.
Bear baiting
Hunting
Shooting
Fishing

I support removal of a hobby from a few to save a life (but not removal of a tool needed for work)

Gun control makes it harder to get hold of a gun and guns will be used/cause less problems. You will never stop the determined, but you do stop a lot of accidents, ill or unhinged etc. etc.

I'd have thought the gun control laws we have a strong enough though, in general.

I did precision target shooting – that's paper-punching as in "targets" but IMHO the most dangerous of all guns has always been the shotgun. The damage they can do close-quarters is immense compared to anything that fires a single bullet but as the snob fraternity and the Royals use them I doubt there will be any ban on them even after this very sad happening. I've never owned a shotgun and never would either.

So actually not really what Hadge said at all, unless it's irony i'm missing.

Tighter gun controls will stop this kind of thing happening, he was not a criminal before today. However, as Cinnamon_Girl said "You can't legislate against everything."

Sometimes, it just doesn't make sense.

Well, given that this kind of thing is so common in the US that it doesn't even make the state news let alone national news, perhaps people have a point about gun control.

I'm not trying to start an argument as so many do on here, but can you prove this as a quick google would say to me it is perhaps slightly more over there over a long time period and a far greater population.

You have to accept that banning guns seems to work

After Hungerford, automatic and semi-automatic rifles were banned, and since then we've had no mass killing with automatic or semi-automatic rifles.

After Dunblane, handguns were banned, and since then we've had no mass killings with handguns.

However, the Cumbria killings were done with a shotgun, and shotguns are quintesentially Tory weapons, used by farmers and other rich landowners.

What chance millionaire Dave and his 12 other millionaire Cabinet collegues banning shotguns?

About as likely as the Issraelis volunteering to stop slaughtering civilians

Guns will find there way into this country, just as drugs do and it'll never get stopped.

That's the specific bit Hadge said which I agree with. Banning stuff never stops it getting into the wrong hands.

Are there any statistics available? FWIW I totally disagreed with the legislation but then I don't see anything wrong with hunting, shooting, fishing etc.

Actually, we did have some world-class shooters who suffered due to this legislation. In fact as a family we used to enjoy the annual day out at Bisley where we could try out all sorts of weapons in a controlled environment.

You can't just rush through ill thought-out legislation to appease Joe Public. Some things just can not be blamed on XYZ.

Who is this "Joe Public" you speak of? He has a an awful lot to answer for.

in the U.K. people kill each other every day with illegal weapons especially pistols despite them being banned, tighter gun laws will do nothing to stop this as the laws only effect legitimate gun owners.
7 people died on the roads today and the seriously injured is into 3 figures*
but 155mph cars are legal in this country when the speed limit is 75.
a madmen on the loose with a legally held gun happens about once a decade.
shotguns/rifles are about as likely to be banned as fast cars.

*ROSPA yearly figures averaged

shotguns are quintesentially Tory weapons, used by farmers and other rich landowners.

That gets the prize for the most ridiculous statement of the day 🙄

First off my sympathies to the families affected.

It’s pretty strict already to obtain a shotgun certificate already. In summary you have to apply giving all the same details as a passport ie proof of ID and a counter signatory as well as all criminal convictions including motoring offenses. You also have to give permission for you GP to provide any relevant medical details. Background checks will also be made on anyone living at the premises over 18. Once they are satisfied with that you are visited/interviewed by the firearms officer, they will ask why you want the gun – you must have a legitimate reason – and explain safety elements. Finally your security arrangements will be checked prior to the certificate being issued.

So if they check out the applicant for medical and criminal issues as well as others with potential access, it is technically an offence for anyone else to know where the cabinet keys are kept. I’m not sure what else could be done. A “nutter” will always find a way to vent their frustration or whatever it is.

Yep, won't change a thing….education on the other hand might….but i doubt it….this country likes providing situations to argue over..guns are fine..it's who owns them that might be a problem, like cars.

However, the Cumbria killings were done with a shotgun, and shotguns are quintesentially Tory weapons, used by farmers and other rich landowners.

do you actually think that or are you just saying that to spice up the debate a bit?

the annual day out at Bisley

Ahh Bisley. The old Parker-Hale modified SMLE. The bungalows. Target duty, when you hear the rounds snapping overhead. Patching the jolly old targets. Trying to remember whereabouts on the target to place the indicator lollipop.

How old are you, cinnamon girl?

eldridge – my son used to enjoy shooting at Army Cadets so we went to Bisley as he had expressed a desire to visit. We all enjoyed it.

Over 50, and you?

However, the Cumbria killings were done with a shotgun, and shotguns are quintesentially Tory weapons, used by farmers and other rich landowners.

do you actually think that or are you just saying that to spice up the debate a bit?

Cumbria killings done with shotgun: fact
Legally-owned shotguns mostly held by farmers and landowners: fact

What's your question, caller?

So what did Jeremy Paxman say then ?

I could kill a lot more people in my car than that bloke did with a gun: Fact.

The suggestion that people in Whitehaven should have been packing heat to pop down to the shops on a Wednesday morning is quite depressing

shotguns are quintesentially Tory weapons, used by farmers and other rich landowners.

That gets the prize for the most ridiculous statement of the day

So who the hell else has the right to own such a ferocious weapon?

Farmers and landowners (overwhelmingly Tory voters) need to own and use shotguns.

Eldridge there are an awful lot of folk who are honest, working class sort who own shotguns – stop being a ****t!

Quintessentially tory weapons – bollox..That chip on your shoulder giving you back ache?!

ps it aint hard to get a shotgun licence..as I recall there is no part of the process that requires owning a shooting estate in Scotland or an income in excess of £££…

MrSmith – Member

"in the U.K. people kill each other every day with illegal weapons especially pistols despite them being banned, tighter gun laws will do nothing to stop this as the laws only effect legitimate gun owners."

Do you know how many people are actually killed with guns here? Less than 1/5th as many as you seem to think. Can't find last year's numbers but 49 in 07/08 59 in 06/07, 49 in 05/06 (these figueres might be slightly shonky but they'll be close). Gun crime including posession went up for the first half of the decade, but that includes replica offences and possession- and guess what, banning previously legal guns increases possession offences.

(If I took my replica 1861 Colt Navy revolver or my little cap-firing flintlock and threw it at someone, that's a gun crime, even though neither of them is a gun, or could ever be made to fire a round.)

The idea that we have a gun crime epidemic in the UK is completely without basis tbh. Sorry to use the cliche but it's pure media hype. And the labout government weirdly allowed that and even played to it, apparently it's better to say "Oh, crime is terrible, we'll improve it" than "Crime isn't terrible, we already improved it". I guess it's a credibility thing.

Media playing god …

😡

Over 50, and you?

Me too

I belong to the post-war generation that routinely received weapons training because it was what our fathers did.

I love guns. I have fired the SMLE, the Stirling SMG, the FN SLR, the Bren gun, as well as various small-bore target weapons.

Banning me from enjoying these weapons did not reduce the casualty rate one bit, because I am not a nutter.

Putting more money into identifying nutters would

So who the hell else has the right to own such a ferocious weapon?

Farmers and landowners (overwhelmingly Tory voters) need to own and use shotguns.

Over 30 million people own cars in Britain where cars kill more than 3000 people a year and maim more than 16000 people a year.

Perspective is great isn't it?

an awful lot of folk who are honest, working class sort who own shotguns

Why in any sane world do these people need to own shotguns?

I love guns

…..

I am not a nutter.

Oh the irony!

Perspective is great isn't it?

Only if your eyesight is OK

FFS a car is not a weapon

Deaths caused by cars are ACCIDENTS

The huge majority of deaths caused by shotguns are not acccients

Sadly, many of them are suicides

And now, a significant number of them are murder

Oh the irony!

You're a bit undereducated mate

It would only be irony if I went out and killed people with guns

I haven't done it yet, so you'll have to wait a bit before you can post:

"Ironically a STW member who said he loved guns but was not a nutter killed 12 people today.."

Where's this shotgun fact coming from?
There's been a guy on a few news programs today who said catagorically that it was not a shotgun and indeed was a very large rifle with a scope.
You can't fit a scope to a shotgun.

I own 3 shotguns for clay shooting. I'm not rich, posh or a landowner. I live in a modest terraced house actually.
One of the guns is now worth around 5k, what's it worth if they ban them next week?
How many of these mass killings were carried out with legal weapons?