Feckless benefit claimants to be put to work – OR ELSE!

So youre unemployed for a year or more, then somebody says next week youll be brushing the streets and painting things, great say the employed who dont do these things, bad say the unemployed so called profesional people who are living off their redundancy with a job on the side, nopt paying tax, getting council tax paid and free prescriptions.

Then what happens to the ones who refuse,they get no money so go and steal,then find out its easy money as some mug always buys stolen stuff, then they disapear off the system.

Theres also the implied shame of the scheme going from say a supervisor in an office to street cleaner, or painter.

so zulu – you think forced labour for subsistence wages is a good idea? You do realise it will cost a lot of money to do this even without giving the claimants any extra money.

Well, I agree that people should be prepared to do something for their benefits – (if one accepts that contributing through tax wasn’t enough, not sure I have) and as many hours as equates to minimum wage seems fair. From my short sharp and not very sweet experience with the system you are actively discouraged from taking on part-time work if you are claiming Job Seekers Allowance.

However, as somebody who supervises a variety of staff, from permanent full time, part time, placements, students, interns etc etc I can’t see this being realistic. If they genuinely want to work they will already be applying for unpaid internships, voluntary work etc so will want to be there and I have had some excellent staff in that category.

Trying to get some quality work out of some layabout who is only there so they won’t lose their benefits ?? No thanks ! And so many issues with the practicalities – what if they call in sick ?? Disclosures seem to be required to change lightbulbs within 3km of where a primary school was once planned these days, so thats more hassle.

I would like to be wrong but all sounds a bit mad to me.

They should look at the qualifications and experience of the lot of them and use the pool of people to police themselves as you will have painter and roofers etc and also managers and accountants etc. Use peoples skills rather than give all crap stuff to do with council lot watching over them like the community service lot.

If people don’t like it work out how much you pay them a week in benefits then split it by minimum wage and tell them they want to stay on that much money they owe you how ever many hours it works out at or they get nowt.

Trying to get some quality work out of some layabout who is only there so they won’t lose their benefits ?? No thanks !

I see your point but surely it’s simple enough – either work to a pre set standard or don’t get the benefits.

so zulu – you think forced labour for subsistence wages is a good idea? You do realise it will cost a lot of money to do this even without giving the claimants any extra money.

Why do you presume this will cost more?

At the moment I, as a taxpayer, pay one person 20k per year to paint railings and pick up dogshit in the park.
I also pay five other people to sit at home on their arses.

Magically, railing painting boy gets a promotion, and now has five assistants to pick up litter, paint railings, shift leaves and pick up dogshit. railing painting boy is happy, since he no longer has to pick up dogshit.

Five arse sitters are no longer arse sitters, they now know what its like to do a hard days work, and are motivated to improve their lot in life rather than just continue picking up dogshit for benefits money. hell, one or two of them migh go and get a job in mcdonalds or sainsburys, one might even start a part time college course to teach him how to become a hairdresser, I mean, its gotta be better than picking up dogshit for a living

Everyones a **** winner!

forced labour for subsistence wages

You mean that I, personally, am NOT “forced” to labour for higher than subsistence, but lower than national average wages? I have choice in the issue do I?

And p.s. – Yes, I’ve picked up dogshit!

You know, even a voluntary scheme would be good from the point of view of boulstering a CV. When a prospective employer asks “what have you been doing for the last couple of months,” it’d be a lot better to be able to say “well, I took part in a voluntary employment plan to put something back into the community” rather than “mostly I sat at home eating my own bodyweight in Wotsits and masturbating furiously.”

Of course it will cost more. Administration of the scheme, administration of appeals, monitoring attendance, monitoring quality of work, supervision, training of forced labourers, PPE for a few place where it will cost.

I’d happily pay more council tax to subsidise this if it meant that I got my railings painted and other people’s dog eggs removed from the path outside my house.

There are TONS of voluntary placement intern etc schemes about already. If people really want to get back into work they are already doing this.

“either work to a pre set standard or don’t get the benefits.”

Mate – you need to wander into a welfare office one day and see if you would be brave enough to sign the piece of paper that keeps some of the characters you meet from getting their money…

Of course it will cost more. Administration of the scheme, administration of appeals, monitoring attendance, monitoring quality of work, supervision, training of forced labourers, PPE for a few place where it will cost.

Well, like I pointed out TJ – theres a whole army of people in the current system who are out there cutting grass, cleaning graffiti, wearing PPE, ticking boxes on clipboards etc. – we don’t have to lay them off, they’re the core staff needed to do all the jobs you’re talking about – they simply get allocated new job descriptions!

Of course it will cost more. Administration of the scheme, administration of appeals, monitoring attendance, monitoring quality of work, supervision, training of forced labourers, PPE for a few place where it will cost.

Give the admin to any civil service branch* They can cope.

*may result in piss poor admin

“Magically, railing painting boy gets a promotion, and now has five assistants to pick up litter, paint railings, shift leaves and pick up dogshit. railing painting boy is happy, since he no longer has to pick up dogshit.”

This works if the council has an infinite number of fences to paint. But as they don’t, instead they’ll find they can get the same number of fences painted using less paid workers.

This works if the council has an infinite number of fences to paint. But as they don’t, instead they’ll find they can get the same number of fences painted using less paid workers.

Again, this assumes we have 100% coverage currently. We don’t – far from it. Driving from Accrington to Blackburn, you can actually see the council boundary – all the grass goes from wild and overgrown to neatly trimmed in a straight line.

Theres always railings to paint, Northwind – you simply start all over again 😉

Think about this, every year we stockpile salt for when it starts snowing, then pour salt all over the roads so the snow melts, causing horrific damage to the environment (not to mention bikes) at huge expense.

Maybe we could stockpile shovels instead!

you think forced labour for subsistence wages is a good idea?

A rather emotive term TJ

How about “working for your keep“. Does that sound better ?

You know, even a voluntary scheme would be good from the point of view of boulstering a CV. When a prospective employer asks “what have you been doing for the last couple of months,” it’d be a lot better to be able to say “well, I took part in a voluntary employment plan to put something back into the community” rather than “mostly I sat at home eating my own bodyweight in Wotsits and masturbating furiously.”

Actually, if the person at interview is looking to continue their career where they left off, compulsorily sweeping streets, cutting grass and painting wouldn’t make the slightest bit of difference to the prospective employer! It’s unlikely the person would be at any interview however, because they would have been too busy doing their compulsory “menial” community work to search for jobs!

Employers may think detrimentally about people who have done forced labour even, but if a voluntary scheme was introduced where the volunteer could have a say in when he/she was going to work, this would allow them to remain focused on their most important issue – getting a tangible paid job. It would also indicate their willingness to give their time for no financial return. I’ve done some volunteering and it’s rewarding, but it doesn’t pay the bills, or give you a sense that you are getting anywhere. If you get a utility bill and phone them up and tell them you can’t pay because you have been volunteering, they aren’t going to get all magnanmous with you, the baliffs will still be banging on your door a couple of weeks later!

A couple have stated that there is a two choice situation going on here: claimants working for their benefits, or sitting at home doing nothing.

I haven’t at any stage advocated unemployed people sitting on their backsides and getting benefits! I suggested that a proper co-ordinated approach to helping these people would be much much more productive than getting them to do “menial” tasks.

I think this is discrimination against the unemployed, as if they are all stupid, lazy etc. The truth is that there are unemployed people with great potential and talent. It’s largely not their fault that their repeated attempts to find work are being ignored. We are in a deep recession after all! The government should be taking more responsibility for this and mot making the unemployed seem like they are the cause of the problem!

Zulu-Eleven – Member

“Theres always railings to paint, Northwind – you simply start all over again”

So are you wanting them doing meaningful work, or pointless make-work? If it’s meaningful work, it’ll be taking work away from the people paid to do it. If it’s not, then it’s not adding any value. It’s not often anything is actually as simple as this so it bothers me slightly to have a black and white argument to make but, well, it is what it is.

pointless make work would be sorting fallen leaves into different colours!

I dont think that repainting the fourth bridge would be classed as ‘pointless make-work’ Northwind

paint, clean and repaint, its how you make things last longer!

There’s always jobs to be done!

Until the potholes in the roads are all fixed, the pavements are repaired, the footpaths cleared of brambles and the dogshit gone form the streets, there’s a job which will benefit society to keep someone busy

There’s always jobs to be done!

Yep, the more literate unemployed could be used to point out poor spelling, grammar, and sentence structure on here? 😆

sentance

Touché 😉

Of course it will cost more. Administration of the scheme, administration of appeals, monitoring attendance, monitoring quality of work, supervision, training of forced labourers, PPE for a few place where it will cost.

And how much work will these forced labourers actually do?

Some people here are ignorant to the reality of people living outside their own little bubble. Reading The Sun too much maybe?

This scheme will cost more to run, than it will actually save the government.
Typical short-sightedness of those with their heads too far up their own arses – appealing to others of the same affliction.

😳

Wot? Dnt no nuffink bowt nuffink!

its really just a bit of right wing crowd pleasing nonesense isnt it?
lets hope it doesnt cost too much

at least its not up there in the damaging the economy stakes like the visa restriction xenophobic rubbish that theyve previously instigated

Spongebob > I should perhaps clarify,

I’m not necessarily advocating that the proposed plan is correct or viable, in honesty I know very little about it. I think perhaps we’re in agreement on the fact that there are large practical concerns.

I also agree that there is a percentage of ‘skilled’ unemployed, many of whom are effectively failed by the system. I’ve been one myself – how many IT jobs do you reckon get posted to an East Lancashire Job Centre in a crappy old milltown? The people who work there (at least when I was jobseeking) simply aren’t geared towards dealing with people who are seeking skilled labour vacancies, except in a couple of notable exceptions – if you’re a HGV driver or a time-served CNC engineer for instance, it’s a positive hotbed of activity.

That said, in my experience of my local JC at least, these people (the skilled unemployed) were a minority. One of the worst things about signing on for me was having to go and rub shoulders with a social underclass that would have made Mos Eisley feel up-market.

The point I’m getting at though is, practicalities aside, I live in a town that’s dropping to bits and has more than its fair share of habitual workdodgers. There’s work to be done that outstrips the resources available to do it, and people who are getting free money for doing nothing about it and in some cases causing it.

This proposal’s implementation may be poor on any number of levels (as I said, I’ve not really looked at it) but in my part of the world at least I reckon it’d be lovely if it worked.

Work Makes You Free?

Godwins Law TJ?

If you are unemployed….. look out! The pressure hasn’t started yet! Wait for ‘advantages’ of the new Work Programme starting next year.

If more employers used Jobcentre’s to advertise their vacancies then the unemployed would have a better chance of being employed!! Society must look to itself in these issues and not look constantly for others to solve the problem

If more employers used Jobcentre’s to advertise their vacancies then the unemployed would have a better chance of being employed!! Society must look to itself in these issues and not look constantly for others to solve the problem

If you’re looking to yourself rather than relying on others, why do we need Job Centres?

Zulu-Eleven – Member

Godwins Law TJ?

Well spotted

Itv news reporting the story, interviewed a guy already on the pilot scheme sweeping at his local pool….

Daryl Slack…..

Made me chuckle

Just saw the news with IDS and William Hague. The article gave the impression that long term unemployed people all live in run down sink estates and are all lazy and work shy. By long term, they mean more than 1 year.

I dunno if the BBC are engineering the news clips, or whether it’s the Conservatives. It’s blatant stereotyping/generalisation and manipulation of public attitudes.

This is out of order and this looses them my vote!

My advice to IDS and the baseball cap wearing numpty: Shut up and focus on a proper programme to get people back to work!

These two politicians have no real experience of the realities normal people face. It would be funny if they weren’t serious!

We’re all in this together – MY ARSE!

Now now TJ – Holocaust imagery ?? Shame on you, I was just starting to like you…

Sorry I don’t agree. Iain Duncan Smith comes across as very well researched and enthusiastic on this issue which is one of societies most difficult, its pretty much a no-win task he’s been given. TBH, its all I could ask of an elected representative.

“It sickens me that many in society think of building work as menial”

OT and Ive never heard him saying that, he’s simply stated that painting the odd fence or bench is a task doable by anyone, which it is. We’re not talking about painting murals on the Sistine chapel. I totally agree on your point that looking down on any job isn’t good for society. Looking down on anyone isn’t either but this also applies to those with jealously against those that have more. I’ve lost count of the amount of mindless vandalism I see because people are obviously jealous.

What is needed is professional counselling and career development…etc

Having been through the job centre, careers centres, having seen friends go through it, I know for a fact the services are there to get people into work. They’re not there for any jobs requiring higher education but then that’s not what we’re discussing. From what I hear these are to be used more as a process of back to work.

I conclude that the country needs a much more horizontal hierarchy…

No unfortunately not but I disagree about a horizontal hierarchy, historically it has never worked. Besides its not really the issue, the problem is people have unrealistic expectations driven by western cultural greed.

I don’t trust any politician, whatever their political persuasion. Their arrogance and incompetence knows no bounds. In light of this, our democratic system is a FAIL!

sigh well get backing and run yourself! It’s all too easy to shout abuse from the sidelines.

oh, and also, it’s funny how the rich need carrots to get them to work, while the poor need sticks…

What on earth are you on about? Im not rich but neither am I poor does that mean I should get a beating every time I get paid? What about when I do contract work in my own time to earn extra money because I want to save for something? Should I beat myself?

Also, how are people meant to seek a job if they are being forced to work?

The same as people who currently work and search for better/alternative employment?

The Tories have to deal with the awkward little problem that unemployment is set to go up dramatically as direct result of their economic policies. What better solution than to blame the unemployed for that ?

“their economic policies” Oh come on! Public spending has been spiralling out of control for years due to the end of boom and bust, Nu Labour US style politics sigh However I don’t agree with the previous governments “all eggs in the financial basket” but that’s a whole other debate.

The reason they are trying to deal with the problem is that it costs a lot of money for people to be on long term unemployment benefit. In addition the same attitude to work is passed onto the next generation.

Lets face it, this is about making it socially unacceptable for people to live long term on benefits without reason i.e. unless you’re too-ill to work or temporally out of work. Its not fair, moral, financially prudent or good for society. Its about getting people in a routine that doesn’t involve rising at lunchtime and walking down to collect benefits once every couple of weeks.

Lets face it, this is about making it socially unacceptable for people to live long term on benefits without reason i.e. unless you’re too-ill to work or temporally out of work. Its not fair, moral, financially prudent or good for society. Its about getting people in a routine that doesn’t involve rising at lunchtime and walking down to collect benefits once every couple of weeks.

What is the name of this mythical benefit that allows folk to sit around on their jacks without reason until payday..?

What is this benefit actually called..?

I would be really interested to know.. because I’ll be buggered if I’ve ever heard of it… It’s a myth and there’s some people here that would appear to be at least partly intelligent that seem all too happy to perpetuate this myth.. by spouting rhetoric based on a loosely and often miscomprehended concept that they are vaguely aware of through the media and speculation..

tell me the name of this wonder benefit that allows fit for work but lazy adults to sit around for years on end squandering their £50 quid a week while they mock us hardworking folk…

I don’t believe that it exists.. someone tell me the name of it and enlighten me..

Cougar, your location belies your political stance!

I live in the Ribble Valley (Decently middle class and suitable arms length from the horrid places you speak of).

If you find yourself unemployed again, get in touch, I may allow you to clean the gravel on my drive(individually mind, I want a good job doing)! 😉

*snort* git. (-:

I fon’t agree though, education to the point of higher education has improved, it’s the disconnect between higher education establishments and business that’s a problem

That’s quite a sweeping statement. Many universities have verybclose relationships with business. Postgrad training, employment workshops for undergrads, employment days, placement modules, placement years, industry experts on placement in universities, sponsored programmes, research partnerships, KTPs…

As someone who recently spent a spell unemployed for over a year the compulsory workfare scheme would not have helped at all. I spent in excess of 30 hours per week for 17 months looking for work. The fortnightly, or weekly at 12 months, trips to the job centre were an exercise in self control in themselves and did nothing for my sense of worthlessness and depression. The trips to the agency assigned to find me meaningful work were largely futile as there was no help with my CV to allow me to get a job with a supermarket, care agency or anything that would get me back into employment. I was considered over-qualified and likely to disappear at a moments notice, not likely as nothing would get me back into my previous area of work.
It’s not as easy as some people would think to change course in your 40’s unless you have the fortitude to work for yourself, something I am not suited to and did not have the home support for. Those that suggest there are simple answers to such a complicated area are deluding themselves as we are all different and what works for me will not necessarily work for Zulu 11 or TJ to cover the extremes of views present on the forum 😉 .

A high percentage of the long term unemployed are early retired ex ‘professionals’ just registering so they can claim on their mortgage insurance and their ‘stamp’ for their state retirement pension. I can’t wait to see them out on the streets!!