Capn – good job you are a leaver otherwise your comments would otherwise be picked up as being selfish, overly focused on money and ignoring the plight of the young and vulnerable who have been made to suffer on the basis of a flawed ideology.

They even had to suffer proper austerity not our pretend version. Imagine that. Europeans believe that is the right thing to do. Amazingly awful isn’t it?

THM, care to clarify what you mean by the “failure” of the euro, given that it still exists, seems pretty stable and is used by several major economies?

Unemployment, asset bubbles, social deprivation, increased inequality, broken banks, wage pressure, real austerity, democratic deficits, large and sustained problem of non performing loans.

That’s just for starters. As elsewhere covered up by stealing off savers and the prudent

But are those things the fault of the Euro? We have all of that in the UK, and in Australia, neither of which has the Euro. Is it not more about the fact that free-market capitalism is fundamentally flawed, that service economies don’t have enough depth to sustain themselves, that trickle down simply doesn’t work and that as the proportion of economies dominated by financial services – that we are all told to bow down and worship – inequality and all other measures increase.

Seems to me that we should be looking more to Germany and Sweden than anywhere else for a blueprint of how to run a country successfully. That’s not to say they don’t have challenges, but on balance I would much rather Britain paid attention to the Swedish and German way, rather than the American way or perish the thought, the Singaporean way.

The euro was built to benefit the Germans at the expense of others. In that respect a tremendous success.

Read Varoufakis on the minotour and why the weak must suffer. Two good books

Odd to want a Swedish housing bubble bet each to their own

The Swedish housing bubble is not as bad as the UK one, and the Swedes have not fully abandoned the sense that a house is a home – whereas here a house has become the core topic of conversation at dinner parties. A house should never be an investment, it should be a machine for living in.

And the property bubble in the UK is directly responsible for our horrible productivity problems. The banks have stopped lending to businesses who would make a sensible return, in favour of perilous mortgage lending.

And businesses have stopped investing in business in favour of property and financial engineering – value extraction rather than value creation.

The Swedes have their issues to sort, but they are still investing in business and people.

The euro was built to benefit the Germans

At last we get to what’s really driving this. Can’t have those Germans doing better than us. Who won the bloody war after all!

To be honest I have no idea if that is true or not. All sounds a bit conspiratorial to me though. Is it not just the case that Germany in the last 30 years has been much better governed than our fair country, and has taken some long term strategic decisions rather than simply turning everything into a quest for shareholder profits via the shortest route?

Unemployment, asset bubbles, social deprivation, increased inequality, broken banks, wage pressure, real austerity, democratic deficits, large and sustained problem of non performing loans.

Remember THM that when we checked the unemployment figures, particularly youth unemployment, it turned out to have more to do with education culture and how figures were counted.

The rest I have no opinion on whether the Euro was a cause or just incidental – mainly because I haven’t checked and I don’t deal with it daily.

No it didn’t.

Go back and check

No need I study it every day.

Australia, New Zealand, the US and Brazil making noises about the UK not getting into the WTO unless they get favourable deals. And you can be sure that if they do, others will follow. Another brexit fantasy crumbles.

Australia, New Zealand, the US and Brazil

Do “they need us more than we need them” too?

teamhurtmore – Member
No need I study it every day.

Then you’re not as good as you think you are.

Seriously, the majority of the difference in the 15-24 year old range was education and given as a second year at university in Italy I was a year younger than the first years that pretty much makes the difference in Italy at least. In Spain you may have more of a point but it’s still not clear cut.

However If you’re sure of yourself then there’s no need entertain my thoughts – of course the truly confident would consider them.

Unemployment, asset bubbles, social deprivation, increased inequality, broken banks, wage pressure, real austerity, democratic deficits, large and sustained problem of non performing loans.

THM, are you seriously claiming that none of these things exist in the UK?

You will also note that the leavers have been bullied off here so I doubt you will get an answer at all.

No. They have not. Everyone is challenged when they post here, no matter their views. Some don’t like their views on this subject matter being scrutinised. On all sides.

THM, are you seriously claiming that none of these things exist in the UK?

Sterling failure is fine. It’s “our” failure.

the leavers have been bullied off here

They won we lost I just want to see what their victory actually looks like.

note that the leavers have been bullied off here

and we note that you have bullied someone of here yet you still feel the need to lectures others 🙄

WHen it was you did you apologise to them ?offer an olive branch?say how bad this was ? They name checked you so I assume you must have?

DO say what you did seeing as bullying is so bad and you despise hypocrites. What did you do again?

HFCAY

Over 40 leavers declared they would be voting out in the first pages of this thread. Some have left the forum completely, some rarely post on politics threads anyhow. Some were people theat were already in the habit of making fools of themselves and some have made fools of themselves over the course of this thread. A tiny number continue to contribute.

The arguments in favour either don’t stand up to scrutiny or demonstrate character traits that people are rightly ashamed to air in public.

Having dipped in and out of this, at no point THM did I think you were a remoaner or that you thought this was all a terrible idea.

Ah you haven’t been watching closely. THM was indeed a remainer but feels the correct approach in a democratic society is to accept the will of the people and move on, accommodating the result in the best way possible. I, on the other hand, am a crotchety, cynical, old **** who will not shift from my stance that the whole thing is disastrous and should be opposed at all cost.

Aye that is it in a nutshell and both are fine within a democracy

the rest is just the noise of someone going on about name calling and the need for respectful debate via the method of insults and name calling.
Personally I think jamby got “bullied” with facts and the personal stuff was due to the repetition of claims we all knew were untrue.

I think it would help if we a just had a debate as this is just sniping around a theme

Some magnificent whataboutery here https://eand.co/the-rise-and-fall-of-nations-6ff1d9a6b044 to combat THM’s whataboutery yesterday with regards to Sweden’s housing bubble.

It’s a good piece from American economist Umair Haque – he’s always worth reading.

The Politburo would like to remind people that discussion needs to stop.
#Brexit #ForThePeopleToOpressThePeople

Ireland will veto anything that involves a hard border. Is that good or bad?

Since the UK has already ruled out a hard border between NI and RoI, there’s no need for Ireland to use their veto.

All we are waiting for is the solution that achieves a hard border between France and England, that does not involve a hard border between France and RoI, or Roi and NI, or NI and England. Seems easy enough. I’m sure THM will be along shortly to explain how the “grown-ups” are working it all out in secret without bothering our tiny minds over the details.

Not in this case sadly

Fox is however saying – correctly for a change – that this should be resolved after nature of trade deal is agreed.

You can apply your minds – tiny or otherwise – where you wish. Thought is free unless you choose to suppress it 😉

Of course the Irish headlines have no link to domestic difficulties at the moment….,

Ireland will veto anything that involves a hard border. Is that good or bad?

You’ve got it all wrong. Liam Fox has said we will veto a soft border if we don’t get the trade deal we want. What actual planet are these idiots on? The hubris and arrogance is astonishing. And they have the cheek to moan about the EU holding our fair island to ransom.

teamhurtmore – Member

Of course the Irish headlines have no link to domestic difficulties at the moment….,

I’ve not read anything to suggest that the political imbroglio relating to an enquiry into an Garda whistleblower has any link to the line on Brexit, perhaps you could link to this theory?
Or do you mean the UK brexit buffoons need a scapegoat in the form of the RoI for their inability to obtain a deal?

Fox is however saying – correctly for a change – that this should be resolved after nature of trade deal is agreed.

Best of luck persuading the Irish and the EU to accept this position.

why trade deal first ?

Have a border between NI and the UK mainland manned by EU customs and I think trade negotiations can start. If that is not he case I think no deal is better than a bad deal for the EU and Ireland so no trade negotiations should proceed until the UK signs up to that.

Because everything follows from that. Not the other way round.

Once we know the terms under which we will maintain ACCESS TO the single market the rest can be discussed. Silly to agree other stuff if we don’t know this first.

Worth a read (probably not worth a read for Quitlings, especially the ones that one day process not to have a clue about Irish politics and and on another, nose-tappingly suggest that there are ulterior motives at play for their position on Brexit 🙄 ). Fintan O’Toole writes for The irish Times, but had this opinion piece on The Guardian’s website.

The hard-won kinship between Britain and Ireland is threatened by Brexit idiocy.

And on the day that this appeared in The Telegraph.

For those thinking I might be outraged, I’m not. A little *sigh*, offended, yes. A bit “Oh FFS, is this the new focus for Brexiteers’ and Quitlings’ blame-everybody-else-but-ourselves-for-our-own-incompetence?” Yep, for sure.

Of course, the fact that the cartoon needs explaining shows how shit it is.

Once we know the terms under which we will maintain ACCESS TO the single market the rest can be discussed. Silly to agree other stuff if we don’t know this first.

Only if you think playing fast and loose with peace and stability in NI is acceptable – presumably you do. You do believe in the existence of dinosaurs?

You do believe in the existence of dinosaurs?

Well, I suppose a crocodile is one of nearest things we have to a living dinosaur – and we know that the leader of the bunch of crackpots currently propping up the Tories certainly believes in them. 🙂

The problem is those whose market we want to free trade with dont agree and they are making the rules

What you or Fox says is irrelevant to them you can play their game or not but you cannot make up the rules of the game. We need to learn this very very quickly

deadlydarcy – Member
…especially the ones that one day process not to have a clue about Irish politics and and on another, nose-tappingly suggest that there are ulterior motives at play for their position on Brexit ).

To be fair the nose tapping suggestion does indicate that he doesn’t have a clue about Irish politics.

Quality sneering 😉

Back your previous comment up then 😉