EU Referendum – are you in or out?

Too late

It’s happening

You can fight for the easy way, or take it the hard way, but It’s still happening.

The whole things reminiscent of the 2010 election, where labour spent five years afterwards trying to refight that election by talking about the economy, while the Tories and SNP were romping home unopposed

I will let it go when they stop spouting nonsense. The ball is in their court.

Like ^ people should think its important to stand up to BS.

And funky I will have you know that it’s a very fine Shetland pony, thank you very much

My biggest moan apart from all the lying on both sides is that anyone with half a brain would have put some small print that you had to have a specific majority say 60/40 a vote which is so close is just asking for trouble.

Steaming ahead with a narrow majority on a non binding referendum will probably not be greatest decision ever taken when history is written about this.

+1. David Cameron will go down as probably the biggest failure of a PM, well, since forever.

Although he has some tough competition for that particular award.

All political careers end in failure

Jacques Chirac ended his career with his best years and is remembered fondly even by everybody I’ve ever asked even those who voted against him.

His wife?

Yeah but few so disastrously and ignominiously just after winning a good majority in an election.

I think May will give DC a run for that honour – the disastrous and ignominious bit.

(Not sure if I’d call DC’s majority good)

No I am not. You are deliberately choosing words to make a point.

I’m really not, I’ve never “chosen words” to make any point ever, I have a good grasp of language but I’m not that clever and rely consistently on the hope that people grasp meaning / intention rather than argue semantics.

They are incorrect. The vote on the 23 June 2016 was not an “opinion poll”. FACT.

Yes it was. FACT.

Capitals make everything true, right?

Irrelevant – You had a chance to make that argument beforehand, you did, we listened, and decided.

The positive benefits of leaving are irrelevant? Seriously?
Don’t you have any?

I’m not trying to have an argument, I’m inviting you to convince me that I’ve missed something and have got it all wrong.

The positive benefits of leaving are irrelevant? Seriously?

Yes, at this point they are – because the time for them was before the referendum.

You can’t just pretend it didn’t happen, it’s a political reality

Imagine if Scotland had voted for independence, even if it was 52/42% there is no practical way the government could have ignored it, that’s exactly what you are calling for them to do, its fantasy land.

Only when applied to factual content, YOU failed on that score I’m afraid.

But let’s assume (for a nanosecond) that you are correct, which polling company organised what you claim on 23 June 2016?

“Imagine if Scotland had voted for independence, even if it was 52/42% there is no practical way the government could have ignored it, that’s exactly what you are calling for them to do, its fantasy land.”

IIRC that one *was* legally binding.

Only when applied to factual content, YOU failed on that score I’m afraid.

How so?

which polling company organised what you claim on 23 June 2016?

I’ve already answered this question.

Yes, at this point they are – because the time for them was before the referendum.

Why don’t you humour me and list yours?

teamhurtmore – Member

But let’s assume (for a nanosecond) that you are correct, which polling company organised what you claim on 23 June 2016?

You seem to have decided that’s important. What polling company organises the STW poll? The UK government runs lots of polls.

So, just to change tack, presumably England & Wales will have no problem leaving the Union so Scotland can stay in the EU?

And please, no one throw in the ‘economy’ card, as you Brexiters aren’t interested in whether leaving is good for the economy, so why worry about whether Scotland staying in is – as it won’t be your problem.

“I’ve already answered this question.”

You appear to be allowing yourself to be lured into a debate about whether a poll intended to measure opinion was an opinion poll or not. 😀

As you say, call it a cheese sandwich it really doesn’t matter, it doesn’t compel the Govt to do a thing.

How so? Your comment is factually incorrect.

Excuse me, I missed the name. Can you repeat it for me?

NW, ask Mark, I have no idea. OOI, what do you think took place on 23/6/16?

Why don’t you humour me and list yours?

I don’t need to justify my decision (I’ve posted in the past on it) nobody needs to justify it, because it’s irrelevant, it’s in the past, it’s pining for the fjords, it’s an ex-issue, it doesn’t matter.

we voted, we voted to leave, it’s a political reality that you can’t now put back in the box.

We were all told beforehand told that whatever the outcome, the government would follow it, and they are.

Yes you’re still fighting the reasoning/justification/logic – none of it matters, it stopped mattering at the moment the polls closed.

presumably England & Wales will have no problem leaving the Union so Scotland can stay in the EU?

Sounds good to me – you do realise that on that basis only E&W get to vote on the issue though, right?

Question: Do you want to leave the UK so Scotland can remain in the EU?
Answers: Yes – set them free. NO – Drag them down with us

It’s 632 pages in and the vote was to leave. Gerrrrroveriiiitt.

Vote???? It was only an opinion poll ATP (apparently)

teamhurtmore – Member

NW, ask Mark, I have no idea. OOI, what do you think took place on 23/6/16?

An advisory, nonbinding referendum.

So, what’s the practical difference between a nonbinding, advisory referendum and an opinion poll then?

It’s 632 pages in and the vote was to leave. Gerrrrroveriiiitt.

And yet here we are with A50 sitting proud as an untouched virgin. Gettttttonnnnwivvvfvitttt!

So, what’s the practical difference between a nonbinding, advisory referendum and an opinion poll then?

One of the two the government pledged to enact the outcome of.

So, what’s the practical difference between a nonbinding, advisory referendum and an opinion poll then?

Opinion poll asks 1-2,000 people then uses smoke and mirros to adjust the “results”. Referendum was 35,000,000

Largest democratic excersize this country has even seen, higher turnnout than at a General Election (?)

The people that didn’t vote on 23rd June where saying, we will go with the flow – you decide for us.

The Remainers are perfectly entitled to campaign for us re-joining, they can campaign for it in 2020, 2025 etc

As I have said many times the I expect the Remaines to go very quiet when the eurozone hits the buffers hard over excessive government debt

@Edukator apart from the fact the PS are going to be a distant 4th how does M expect to pay for the Universal income ? Note everyone in the EU will be entitled to arrive and claim it – no ?

Sounds good to me – you do realise that on that basis only E&W get to vote on the issue though, right?

Question: Do you want to leave the UK so Scotland can remain in the EU?
Answers:
Yes – set them free.
No – Drag them down with us

Absolutely, either way we get independence just the second way we’ll have to declare UDI and appeal to EU for ‘clemency’ 🙂

Jambas, you say this many times despite the fact that our membership of the EU has no impact on the impact of this event.

NW, thank you, a nice defintion, as a bright guy, I know that you know the answer to the second question.

I don’t need to justify my decision (I’ve posted in the past on it)

I’m not asking you to justify anything, I’m offering you the chance to persuade me that I’m wrong (or at best, asking you to put my mind at rest). Whilst I have read this entire thread, you’ll forgive me hopefully if I don’t wade back through twenty-two thousand posts looking for an answer.

teamhurtmore – Member

NW, thank you, a nice defintion, as a bright guy, I know that you know the answer to the second question.

I’m asking you. Do you not have an answer?

Of course it has an impact if for no orher reasons other than subset;

we need to ween ourselves off our trade with the EU as it will be much weaker in the future
budget confributions are based on relative economic strength
Immigration would go through the roof with a eurozone in even deeper crises
We will be roped in to the bailout/recovery funds etc etc
In the event (when) the eurozone collapses we need to be free to respond quickly with regard to global trade and to do so in OUR best interests via freedom to negotiate bilateral trade deals independent of the 27

Yes, it’ll like apples and a pears. As you iknow dangerous to mix the two up unless you want a pudding

Having skim read the 97 pages of the supreme court ruling I am had that they are not focused on domestic/culinary issues and prefer to focus on what needs to be done in order to move on

“One of the two the government pledged to enact the outcome of.”

A problem that was solved with the resignation of Cameron.

Governments break promises all the time.

Thats ok then….carry on

One of the two the government pledged to enact the outcome of.

Well, two wrongs don’t make a right eh?

We pay for most of it already, Jamba, a fairer distribution is what’s initially needed. You perhaps missed the “progressive introduction” part.

We’ll see about the distant 4th. If Hamond is it will be just behind Fillon.

Who will centre left/centre right vote for – imo Macon. You are right of course we won’t really know till April

Mrs B tells me estimated cost is €500bn, no way that’s already “factored in / paid for”

How do you stop the entire EU turning up under the Lisbon Treaty with the legal right to be treated as a French citizen would ?

So you are beginning to take Macron seriously. 🙂

Ask the Finns about how they cope with the mass of migration their universal income has created (not).

I’m offering you the chance to persuade me that I’m wrong

I don’t need to persuade you

It’s the 17,410,742 that were persuaded that matter.

#Disunity

These Brexies couldn’t bring the country together if they… well they’re just not going to be able to are they?

😆

Face it ninfan, the only difference between you traitorous Brexies and the honest remainder patriots is that we know we lost, and it hasn’t dawned on you yet that you lost too.

😀

Zokes, perhaps the reason we lost is a tendency to lose perspective as you wilder comments highlight. By 2020, our economy is likely to be somewhere around 4% smaller than it would otherwise have been. OK, not good but not a disaster. Behind this will be more costly trade and investment. Sad but true, but this is not a rogering, it is merely an avoidable deviation from a trend. We will survive.

You say that so blithely I think you almost believe it yourself. I’ve emboldened and underlined the important bit.

For the country as a whole, perhaps not. But the country is not one homogeneous entity so that this 4% would be lost equally by all. Rather, certain parts of it, including parts that matter to me an awful lot, such as scientific research, will be impacted to a much greater extent. This is even more acute if you happen to be involved with any form of research that isn’t immediately linked to industry, e.g. environmental, ecological or agricultural research.

But as molgrips has already pointed out, it’s not just the financial cost, which I’m guessing given your change of tone you’ve worked out how to dodge. It’s also things like the right to live and work where you choose amongst at least 27 other countries. The right for people who you may know or even love to stay in the UK.

Those are but two of the reasons why I’m still angry. Without a hint of hyperbole, Brexit has been the singularly worst political decision to affect me in the 33 years of my life, and by some margin. Some could dismiss that as “first world problems”. Perhaps they’d be right. But we live in the first world, and this is a particularly vexatious and self-inflicted problem that can still be avoided if a few hundred men and women sitting on green benches would just do what they’re paid for and act in this country’s best interests.