EU Referendum – are you in or out?

MOLGRIPS

Response to CG’s post on the election thread

4/ What does making our own decisions even mean?
If we bail out completely from anything with the word europe in it “we” still have to follow WTI rules if we want to trade under them…
If you want a plane to land in another country you need to accept rules…..
It’s not like we don’t set most of of our own laws anyway and most of the ones we adopt are just nobrainers anyway… reminds me of the “putting a condom on my John Thomas” sketch where the protestant wife is saying “oooh do it” and the bloke is “well that’s not the point, I can if I want” …

i’ve watched some of this earlier
Common Market Debate | Edward Heath | Michael Foot
70’s tv debate Micheal foot and Edward Heath

notice the vastly improved debate, arguments are fully presented, not sound bites. it’s interesting to see how the arguments felt so similar. And in fact a lot of the brexit issues have been about since the 70’s.

I do think the big difference to then and now, is, Britain as a “empire” is gone. and so, with the growth of China and russia doing a good job of sowing disharmony, we will need closer allies more than ever. Pissing off our neighbours with a terribly organised brexit doesn’t offer us the stability we need for the next couple of decades.

I do think the big difference to then and now, is, Britain as a “empire” is gone.

That ship sailed over 70 years ago. You’d have thought that we’d have managed to get our heads around it by now

Apparently not. It seems that in a lot of peoples heads its still all Spitfires, The Dambusters and Brittania ruling the waves.

Its absolutely pathetic!

cinnamon_girl

Subscriber

So what was your logic for voting for it?
Also are you still in favour?

I had serious concerns about becoming a United States of Europe, the jostling for power that was going on, the gravy train, concern about some of the countries that joined the EU etc. Importantly though I felt it was costing this country far too much money.

As regards whether I’m still in favour, I look at the Tories and think God help us all.

About 2 years ago, on this thread.

If that actually was from two years ago, you scare me. It’s my role to keep track of this shit and I couldn’t tell you who said what 15 minutes ago.

Yeah. It just stuck in my mind. It was mainly because I’d thought of CG generally being pretty reasonable, but to have voted the way she did, for reasons that amounted to basically giving Cameron a bloody nose, gave me real pause for thought. In what way would voting leave be even registered as a vote of disapproval? I just found it really mystifying tbh.

2) The UK isn’t really ‘ruled’ from Brussels anyway. But in the legislation that does come from Brussels the UK is a major player. We have a lot of influence in the lawmaking. It’s a collective effort – we aren’t submissive. We are working WITH foreign governments, not simply taking.

Very much this.

Right up to the point where the country decided to shoot itself in the foot – again – and send a load of clowns from the Nigel Farage Show, instead of actual MEPs.

“In what way would voting leave be even registered as a vote of disapproval?”

If you’re generally dissolusioned with UK politics and a smarmy PM decides to hold a referendum, it’s an opportunity to register your dismay.

Not saying I agree with the approach but I understand the distaste of politicians, and the EU needs reform. I voted remain because the leave option was worse than staying.

If you’re generally dissolusioned with UK politics and a smarmy PM decides to hold a referendum, it’s an opportunity to register your dismay.

I kind of see what you are saying but is there anything more smarmy than Farrage?

There was no greater protest vote to stick it to The Man than voting for a banker called Nigel.

Smarmy? Gove? Patel?
Most of both the Leave campaign teams?

At the time of the referendum I heard a few people say they voted leave as some form of protest vote or other, not expecting for a moment that they’d actually win. Whether that was in sufficient numbers to actually affect the result though I’ve no idea.

Taken as a proportion of the people on this forum it was definitely enough to change the result, Cougar. Over 120 members posted to say which way they’d be voting at the start of this thread. Some of them stated why straight off, for others it became clear later from their later contributions or it was already clear from thier oft expressed views. One person who’s posted in the last few day said “won’t happen, don’t care” then voted out. Another was recently apologetic about not having taken the possibility that Leave might win seriously and voted out as a protest. The justification of a few others fell into the protest vote category. Nationally that would have swung the vote if those people had realised what the consequences of their protest vote would be and changed their minds accordingly.

Del was surprised by CG’s vote, I was even more surprised by some others; an NI resident who’s quite francophile and politically in tune, someone who voted out because of something about child benefits… .

Most people who I had some idea of their views voted as I’d have expected. The leave voters very much occording to the stereotypes (and many have stopped posting or come back with a new pseudo). Some I was pleasantly surprised (because it pleases me that people are pro EU or at least not anti-EU enough to screw the economy for nearly everybody) and just a few voted leave for odd reasons, but enough to tip the balance when projected nationally.

STW has been the best insight into the dynamics of Brexit I’ve had when watching from the other side of the Channel because there are both Guardian and Telegraph people here even if it’s the Guardian side that’s most vocal and far more coherent.

it pleases me that people are pro EU or at least not anti-EU enough to screw the economy for nearly everybody

I think that’s rather an on-point statement.

One of the many pro-brexit narratives post-referendum has been “if you love the EU so much…” You don’t have to love the EU or even like it, you just have to recognise (and admit) that the alternative is far, far worse.

Even if leaving the EU was beneficial, not unpicking almost half a century of integration very, very carefully indeed is clearly exceptionally dangerous to anyone who’s spent more than 8 seconds thinking about it. It’s like agreeing to surgically separate Siamese twins with a bandsaw – at best, one of them is going to die.

“Get brexit done” is the latest oversimplification lie in a long history of them. If we “get brexit done” it won’t be the end of anything, it will be the start of a very long process.

You don’t need to be pro-EU, just not full of “price worth paying” bile and hatred. That is, really, what this entire argument boils down to isn’t it.

Oldmanmtb here not logged in since the great password debacle and had to get a new account hence the 2.

I have sat back from most forums for well over a year mainly due to apathy…

So if we are to believe the polls we will have a Tory majority by next week and a brexit withdrawal underway and most likley a hard brexit by this time next year.(hence the grins of Baker, Francois, Mogg etc)

So then the “bill” will be presented for payment – the true cost of this will become the burden of the less well off and the architects of this will profit.

The game is over fellow remainers, we dont even have a forlorn hope.

We need to focus on what follows and how we cope with the new world order, we are going to struggle, poor people are going to have a miserable existence that may last multiple generations or indefinitely. Successive governments will try and “fix” this by deregulation, nationalisation, austerity, debt and none of these will fix it. We can not compete with anyone including the EU as all major economies can simply shut us down by regulation.

So what will the message be on the leave bus in 2030 “well you voted for this?”

I am fortunate and can probably ride the shit storm and my kids all have good sought after degrees so they can move around the world. Anyway see you all in 2021…..

my kids all have good sought after degrees so they can move around the world

If they’re lucky. It’ll take luck. No-one will have the right to leave the country and move somewhere else.

I’m sure they can whack another couple of years on the retirement age. “ You wanted Brexit, you will have to pay for it”

**** each and every person who voted leave and each and every **** who votes Tory.

**** each and every person who voted leave and each and every **** who votes Tory.

Hear, hear!

Planning on voting for Johnson next week?

Then please don't ever lecture anyone ever again about honesty, probity, integrity or morality.

And don't bother moaning, either, when you realise Brexit will rumble on for years to come. You really, totally, absolutely were warned…

— Michael Dougan (@mdouganlpool) December 6, 2019

Final slide in Treasury document leaked via Labour pic.twitter.com/OuL3lcxjBY

— Sam Coates Sky (@SamCoatesSky) December 6, 2019

Extremely worrying analysis from Treasury officials here for NI voters

* 98% of NI exporters “likely to struggle to bear this cost”
* High Street prices likely to rise in NI as a result
* Unemployment in areas like retail likely to rise https://t.co/V0VuEIt5sZ

— Sam Coates Sky (@SamCoatesSky) December 6, 2019

HMT leak

Treasury analysis also damning on constitutional impact of Boris Johnson brexit deal

* “Economic union undermined”
* Separates NI “in practice from whole swathes of the UK’s internal market”
* “Precedent set for different treatment for a constituent prt of the UK” pic.twitter.com/86fPHWmHKc

— Sam Coates Sky (@SamCoatesSky) December 6, 2019

Johnson is a liar when it comes to his form of Brexit (just like everything else). There is a good reason why every single candidate standing to be an MP in NI is against his withdrawal agreement.

Molgrips

If they’re lucky. It’ll take luck. No-one will have the right to leave the country and move somewhere else.

I’m surprised you are pointing that out … it’s one reason I have to hold my nose if I vote for Corbyn’s Labour (pending last minute tactical voting)

Perhaps you think that is an acceptable price for true socialism but to me it’s as own goal as the UKIP crap just put through my letter box that starts “It’s been 79 years since the battle of Britain, fought to defend our nation from a foreign power?”

Presumably I don’t need to explain the irony of that .. but the irony of far left countries being the only ones I can think of that prevented their citizens leaving.

Yes, ending FoM, by any party, is removing rights from workers. At least Labour are offering us the chance to vote to keep it. I consider what is on offer from the Tories, without a referendum to accept it, very much along the lines of Communist countries having internal travel documents to stop workers moving, and emigration controls to enslave the population.

The issue I see with the election is that is is an election of unicorns and cats…
By “The cats”… I mean cat’s in bags where the obvious cat that will be impossible to put back will be Brexit…. but the Tory’s are even busier with their “communist after it failed” controls and removing democracy…. whereas I see this is just somewhere Labour would end up if they have a 2nd Ref and it’s leave…

I’m not unsympathetic for example with the SNP…. but I don’t think it should be pushed as a condition… and universal suffrage for 16 yr olds is IMHO a mixed bag. (Sounds good now as they will mostly vote the way I like) …. and whereby I can see the relevance over a referendum that is itself the cat in the bag and affects them the most I’d also worry we have now compulsory education to 18… and certainly how I was at 18…and how that would be today with social media.

A dose of reality as regards “Get Brexit Done” nonsense from, er, The Telegraph…?

As @AllieRenison @The_IoD EU trade chief tells me, there is no way biz can adjust overnight to a new tariff/rules of origin/VAT regime – GDPR, the EU's new data regs – had a multi-year grace period before it came into force. /2

— Peter Foster (@pmdfoster) December 6, 2019

The pound is above referendum levels against the Euro for the first time since the referendum. It appears that the prospect of a significant Tory majority and some technical stuff are behind the rise. Having decided to pull the plug on our last remaining UK investments I’m trying to decide when to move. Tuesday seems like a good day. Any opinions?

I’m surprised you are pointing that out … it’s one reason I have to hold my nose if I vote for Corbyn’s Labour (pending last minute tactical voting)

I don’t know what you mean here.

I don’t think that we will be prevented from leaving the country. But we won’t have the right to live and work in other countries if we aren’t EU citizens. So we can leave on holiday but we will have to come back, unless we are lucky.

Lying liars and lying…

By this stage it looks like the cynical, but correct, calculation is that the GB electorate (outside a handful of hobbyists & eccentrics) don’t care about anything NI-related so you can just say what you like.

— JPCampbellBiz (@JP_Biz) December 7, 2019

Molgrips

I don’t know what you mean here.

I don’t think that we will be prevented from leaving the country. But we won’t have the right to live and work in other countries if we aren’t EU citizens. So we can leave on holiday but we will have to come back, unless we are lucky.

Except that is what has happened in stages to multiple socialist countries.

Failure to deliver the promised utopia and human nature lead to increased control of the population (for the common good) and often this results in loss of freedoms or “we just need to be even more socialist”…

How else are Labour going to prevent people like Aron Banks just leaving their jurisdiction?
Not that I disagree with that but then the gradual authoritarianism has started and drawing a line becomes an ever shifting line… eventually we can justify preventing nurses leaving .. after all the state paid for their training…

It is however a risk not a definite … and when compared against the pretty much complete repression of democracy and controls in the Tory Manifesto (Pg 48) a far more acceptable risk.

I think we are talking about different things.

I’m bemoaning the loss of FoM from a personal perspective.

eventually we can justify preventing nurses leaving .. after all the state paid for their training

Most nurses won’t want to leave if their working conditions are good enough.

I’d just like to that all the contributors to this thread whatever their views. It’s been a better insight into views than any media source. As Britain heads into another election I’ve noted an aire of resignation here, of inevitability. And the election thread says that Brexit is now secondary to the older members of society who will vote for a Tory Brexit simply because they feel a part of the peer group that does and haven’t the capacity for independant thought to do otherwise.

That means that long term investing in Britain is a bad idea so I’ve sold. Future contributions to the thread from me will be from someone who has no vested interest whatsoever other than the impact it will have on Europe as a whole.

Watching European politics I’m beginning to see some positive effects of Britain’s absence. Macrons ideas on taxing profits where they are made, making sure VAT is paid on everything coming into Europe etc. are gathering a following and Britian won’t be around to hinder. Looking good.

See how far we’ve come in just a short space of time.

Oops typo to start my last post: “just like to thank”

So I’ll repeat, thanks all for your insight.

Boris’s mandate is even stronger than I expected, his negotiating ability no stronger than before, his red lines no doubt thicker. To all the remainers – I commiserate. To the leavers – You’re getting what you voted for.

Ironically it’s not the Labour party that’s taking Britain back to the early 70s, it’s the Conservatives.

On a personal level it’s EU treaties that have enabled a lot of what I’ve done with my life. I’m in the happy position of still being ‘”in”, however 66 million people will no longer enjoy those freedoms and rights.

Europe just got a little less united and a little weaker. It’s bizarre to see people celebrating that.

66 million people will no longer enjoy those freedoms and rights.

Utter conjecture because no one one here know the full impact of Brexit until many years of negotiation and fall out.

You be better off not making assumptions and judgements that drive you and others to negativity.

I’ve never been flooded and it’s unlikely to flood here, I still feel sorry for people who get flooded. It’s not negativity, it’s sympathy.

Utter conjecture

I think the phrase you are looking for is, “Project Fear”. If you can’t even accept that after we leave the EU we will lose the freedoms and rights we have as EU citizens… there are a lot of surprises in store for you.

2016 referendum,2017 general election,2019 European election and now the 2019 general election.Let’s face it ,however unpalatable, the British electorate wants Brexit.You can blame Corbyn,the right wing media,Cummings dirty tricks or the stalling tactics of the UK parliament,whatever. We could have had a softer May Brexit but it was blocked by Remainer MPs on all sides and the ERG, setting off the course of events that leads us to where we are now.The country now faces a Boris Brexit which could be harder than practically anyone wants, however the size of his majority may mean that he is not depenedent on the ERG and so may push for a softer Brexit after all.Fingers crossed for the latter.

So for me the big question now is – what will the future relationship look like for Brits and EU citizens? Will our trade deal include some form of reciprocal labour movement? If not, will The EU unilaterally offer opportunities to UK citizens along the lines of the mooted ‘associate member’ idea?

The latter would be a killer move from the EU – it would allow pro-EU workers to migrate into the EU – which is more likely to be higher skilled wokers – simultaneously boosting the EU skills base and weakening the UK which is now a competitor, without being seen to be taking political action against the UK.

2019 European election and now the 2019 general election

As I recall, the electorate voted pro-remain / pro-third referendum in those two.

will The EU unilaterally offer opportunities to UK citizens along the lines of the mooted ‘associate member’ idea?

Works for me. Others? Dunno.

nick1962

the English electorate wants Brexit.

Fixed that for ye, but aye, argument is over, Boris’s vision is happening.

molgrips

Subscriber
So for me the big question now is – what will the future relationship look like for Brits and EU citizens? Will our trade deal include some form of reciprocal labour movement? If not, will The EU unilaterally offer opportunities to UK citizens along the lines of the mooted ‘associate member’ idea?

Ask Boris, it’s all him now.