EU Referendum – are you in or out?

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  • EU Referendum – are you in or out?
  • Premier Icon kelvin
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    Who do I vote for?

    Whoever has a chance of reducing Johnson’s number of MPs by one.

    Premier Icon Northwind
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    slowoldman

    Subscriber

    So I’m a remainer.
    My constituency is Con/LibDem – Labour stand no chance.
    The Tories want a hard Brexit
    Labour want a red Brexit
    Libdem want to revoke but apparently Swinson is untrustworthy and a vote for them is a vote for Tory Lite.
    Who do I vote for?

    Lib Dems of course. Even if you do believe the lib dems are tory lite- which isn’t really true- then that’s still better than Tory Original. I mean, what’s the absolute worst case?

    There’s that weird thing that people did when it was May vs Corbyn, of saying “Well Corbyn would probably try and do good things, but ineffectually. May on the other hand will do horrible things, but effectively. So I’ll vote for her. I mean, in the end she turned out to be both awful AND useless, but it’s not like being really efficiently awful is a selling point. Diet evil is still better than full fat evil.

    (I’m absolutely sure that Labour do want a red brexit; but equally sure that the brexit they want is impossible. The difference between their fantasy brexit and the Tory one, is that the Tories will use promises of unicorns to deliver the really shite brexit which they actually want. Whereas Labour are more likely to try to deliver unicorns, and then when they can’t, go “Ah ****, unicorns don’t exist after all. We could just get some massive wood screws and drill them into a pony’s face, but it wouldn’t really be the same, we’d better not eh. Shame, I’d have liked a unicorn”)

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    I’m absolutely sure that Labour do want a red brexit; but equally sure that the brexit they want is impossible.

    This is a ruse, to make it look like they tried to placate Brexiteers, but knowing full well they can’t so they wouldn’t have to face the economic consequences.

    Premier Icon Northwind
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    Mmm. Maybe. For sure there are Labour supporters and party members who genuinely believe that they can deliver their perfect brexit if given the chance. Whether Corbyn and Co believe the same, I’m not certain.

    Which matters, since it demonstrates a lack of basic competence… But may matter less than the result (I’d be almost as happy for brexit to not happen because of incompetence, as I would be through cleverness. It’s less good in the long term though)

    andy8442
    Member

    Jesus! are we still on this? I thought it was all a bad dream. Remember the good old days, when all we talked about was wood burners and Skoda Octavias.

    Premier Icon doomanic
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    It’s the gift that keeps on giving.

    Premier Icon kelvin
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    It can “just get done” by Xmas, don’t worry, Johnson has assured us.

    [a promise from the last person in Britain you can trust]

    tjagain
    Member

    Who do I vote for?

    You vote for the party most likely to oust / defeat the tory. Due to our archaic and undemocratic system its the only thing you can do. Its a condemnation of our system that the only sensible way to vote is to vote negatively ie you vote for the person most likely to beat the representative of the party you like least

    Premier Icon slowoldman
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    Sigh, I knew I shouldn’t have posted that. Of course I know who to vote for, it was a snipe at the “don’t vote for Swinson, you’ll just get a Tory” brigade. What else CAN I do FFS?

    So I am a remainer and also anti Scottish Independence.

    My constituency is Tory now but was SNP pre 2017. Before that it was Lib Dem.

    I can’t see Lib Dem winning it back, the gap is too big to jump. A vote for Lib Dem could help Tory retain the seat. It feels like I am forced into voting SNP to ensure Tory lose the seat, even though I am no fan of SNP, their single focus on independence or their ability to run a decent (devolved) government.

    It is a mess.

    Awesome skewering of Trump and Brexit up to the 33 minute mark, well worth a listen.

    “The great example of this, is what I think will be seen as the extraordinary, awful or splendid depending on your view, defeat of the United States in the first major cyberwar of our century in 2016. The result of which is that the president of the United States is the payload of a Russian cyber weapon”

    null

    Premier Icon kelvin
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    Premier Icon kimbers
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    I think I may day of scahdenfreude

    Arron Banks Twitter account has been hacked & has been used to send out lots of his alleged private messages

    Premier Icon kimbers
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    Premier Icon kimbers
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    Premier Icon kelvin
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    And Wigmore has helpfully confirmed the leak, so it’s genuine.

    Premier Icon kimbers
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    Premier Icon kimbers
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    I really hope these messages are real

    Premier Icon doomanic
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    What good will they do, really?

    The true brexleivers will just call it fake news and carry on regardless.

    Premier Icon kimbers
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    seems the raab ‘nortehrn momkeys’ one is fake 🙁

    Premier Icon fadda
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    It makes you wonder how anyone could ever say “it’s worth it”…

    stevextc
    Member

    It makes you wonder how anyone could ever say “it’s worth it”…

    So right now the targetted ads are flashing up some betting site…
    I can do a very easy economic argument … the bookie always wins yet millions (or who knows tens of millions) bet anyway and a not insignificant number lose homes, relationships etc. and still do it?

    Premier Icon kelvin
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    Premier Icon boomerlives
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    The Govt spent £100 million on the advertising campaign for the Oct 31st Brexit.

    That didn’t happen either.

    Money well spent!

    Premier Icon kelvin
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    Premier Icon kelvin
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    Nice work if you can get it…

    Premier Icon onewheelgood
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    https://www.channel4.com/news/focus-group-can-tories-win-over-people-who-voted-labour-and-leave

    Watch and weep. Weapons grade idiocy. These are the people who condemn us to darkness.

    Premier Icon twistedpencil
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    Festival of Brexit can be sorted very easily, just contact Rob, sorry, Banksy.

    http://dismaland.co.uk/

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    Response to CG’s post on the election thread

    I believe we should be making our own decisions instead of kowtowing to Brussels

    1) What’s the difference between kowtowing to Westminster or Brussels? I think that the only answer to this is a nationalistic one. To me, there is no difference between accepting rules from Westminster or Brussels. I’m represented in both places. The only difference is that there are non-British people in Brussels. To me that does not matter. To many Welsh, Scottish or Northern Irish people, Westminster rule is being ruled by foreigners, and yet that is what you are presumably in favour of? Why not ask someone from Arkansas how they feel about being part of a United States of America. Is it so bad? Most are quite proud of it. Why couldn’t we be proud of being in a United States of Europe, if it ever happened?

    2) The UK isn’t really ‘ruled’ from Brussels anyway. But in the legislation that does come from Brussels the UK is a major player. We have a lot of influence in the lawmaking. It’s a collective effort – we aren’t submissive. We are working WITH foreign governments, not simply taking.

    3) Even if you don’t like any foreigners having any influence over us, you could view it as a necessary condition of being part of a hugely beneficial trading and negotiating block. If we get rid of foreign influence, we LOSE a huge amount. I don’t think many people understand that. We are currently in one of the biggest clubs on earth, we have 27 other governments working with us for mutual benefit. If we leave, we will have no-one working for our benefit and 27 of our nearest neighbours working against us, because we’ll be a competitor.

    Premier Icon slowoldman
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    The UK isn’t really ‘ruled’ from Brussels anyway. But in the legislation that does come from Brussels the UK is a major player.

    THIS. We are one of the member states who propose legislation. European Commission drafts legislation which then goes to parliament for MEPs to vote on. We elect MEPs. So it’s pretty similar to our own system of civil service and parliament (though more efficient).

    The UK has voted against only 2% of proposed EU legislation (about 70 odd items non off then of any major constitutional importance, just stuff like food labelling). So we have been broadly in agreement with EU proposals.

    How is policy developed in the European Union?

    Premier Icon oldnpastit
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    I believe we should be making our own decisions instead of kowtowing to Brussels

    The flip side of this is that 27 other *sovereign* countries *were* sometimes doing things that helped *us*, even though they might not have liked it very much.

    e.g. Russian sanctions following the Salisbury poisonings.

    Why would they do that in future?

    Premier Icon Cougar
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    One of the (many) great misunderstandings is that Brussels is somehow “in charge.” It isn’t, it’s just a convenient central location to meet up.

    The UK’s MEPs are fully one tenth of the European Parliament. The EU doesn’t “tell us what to do” but rather in a very real sense it’s the other way around. We tell a couple of dozen other countries what to do. Vive l’empire!

    I idly wonder sometimes whether this whole sorry mess could have been avoided if we’d simply relocated the EU parliament buildings to Birmingham.

    Premier Icon Cougar
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    I believe we should be making our own decisions instead of kowtowing to Brussels

    The short answer to this of course is simply “we already do.”

    The stupifying irony to this is, if we do leave we’ll still have to conform to EU regulations if we want to have any hope of trading with mainland Europe post-brexit, only we’ll no longer have any say in defining those rules. If anyone believes that the UK should “make its own rules” then it’s actually a very compelling argument in favour of not leaving.

    Premier Icon slowoldman
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    If anyone believes that the UK should “make its own rules” then it’s actually a very compelling argument in favour of not leaving.

    Excellent point well made.

    koldun
    Member

    I’d also question how a small and progressively less relevant island like Britain would benefit from being a lone entity if a United States of Europe did form.

    Edit – and thank you for your post CG, while i may not agree it is good to see other points of view.

    Premier Icon zippykona
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    Our most ardent leavers are more than happy for us to be kowtowing to Geneva and the unelected foreign bereaucrats of the WTO.

    We will be the bitch of the world.

    Premier Icon Cougar
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    Having read the full post on the other thread now,

    CG: I agree with most of what you’ve said there. But the simple fact is that leaving the EU won’t help with anything you’ve listed, if anything it’ll make it worse. Every issue you’ve mentioned is a domestic problem not a European one, we’ve done it to ourselves and we’ve now found a convenient scapegoat to blame it all on.

    The “money we send to the EU” is simply a smokescreen. It sounds like a lot of money but in national budget terms it’s pocket change. If you’re a UK tax payer earning an average salary (circa £28k last I looked) then out of the five grand per year you’ll pay in income tax and NI, your contribution to the EU is about £40.

    If you care to know what you, personally, gain for that £40 above and beyond the national / international stuff then bang your postcode in here: https://www.myeu.uk/

    The “United States of Europe” is simply tabloid scaremongering (it’s a shame there isn’t a catchy name for this, we could call it “project fear” or something maybe?). There’s little to no appetite for this in any member state, and even if there was then as an EU member we could veto the idea if we didn’t like it (unless we leave of course, then all bets are off and they can do what they want without us interfering).

    If there were any truth in this sort of thing (see also, the fictional “EU army”) then would it not in fact be a compelling reason to remain, so that we could either veto it or be a part of it? Would we really want 27 countries on our doorstep assembling some form of military or political powerhouse that we had no say in and were excluded from being part of?

    It’s all hypothetical of course as it’s not happening and unlikely ever to do so, but I simply cannot fathom the logic in this as a reason for leaving. It’s surely the opposite.

    sanername
    Member

    “The “United States of Europe” is simply tabloid scaremongering (it’s a shame there isn’t a catchy name for this, we could call it “project fear” or something maybe?).”

    I call that snidetracking: deliberately saying something false to alter the direction of debate to your own advantage. There’s a lot of it that goes on.

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