“I don’t like it when my neighbourhood is dominated overwhelmingly by….”

People tend to ask “by what”… and the answer to that question tends to tell you if the concern is born of racism, or xenophobia, or something else.

You can keep talking about “culture”, but at some point @stevextc you have to get down to specifics. Only then can you work out the motivations.

I’ll pitch in with a 50% chance of an extension being refused.

which country would refuse it though?

would be very divisive for commission, cant see them damaging themself over this

People tend to ask “by what”… and the answer to that question tends to tell you if the concern is born of racism, or xenophobia, or something else.

You can keep talking about “culture”, but at some point @stevextc you have to get down to specifics. Only then can you work out the motivations.

It may well not be racism, but it’s the very definition of xenophobia – a fear or dislike of something “other,” something strange or foreign.

I think perhaps the stumbling block here is inferring that xenophobia is inherently Bad. It certainly has the potential to be, but wanting to spend time with people whom you have something in common with is a fairly natural human reaction. I mean, most folk would choose to go to the pub with their mates rather than a bunch of strangers, wouldn’t they?

I think that’s what Steve is trying to say? But going from here to racism is rather a fine line, isn’t it.

which country would refuse it though?

Turkey.

turkey not in the commission

but I can see how they would want the deal NI has got

DD, I thought they were out of the running, what with not being in Europe?

I mean, I could see Hungary or Spain doing it for one reason or another (Gibraltar, Johnson pressure, etc) but not a non-member of Europe.

DD, I thought they were out of the running, what with not being in Europe?

Get outta here. They’ve not joined yet? 😲

You miss my point @Cougar… it may not be xenophobia at all… they might just dislike young people, noisy people, church bells, joggers, shell suits… I dunno… “culture” is such a wide term that more specifics are required. Many people currently hide behind the term when they’re really just racist… so when someone votes because of a fear of being isolated within a culture they don’t like… questions have to be asked. Find out what they mean. Don’t assume they’re racist… but if they aren’t, they need to articulate what they don’t like, not just keep saying “culture”.

Looking at the chart kimbers put up its going to go through isn’t it , maybe not by much but it only takes a few labour rebels .

Almost more depressing is if it does go through Boris is all of a sudden a Brexit hero for the 52% and would surely win a general election all because of a few labour rebel’s , what a mess Corbyn has made of all this .

What times kick off on Saturday?

In going to be glued to the box all day. A defining moment one way or another.

It is a worse deal than mays, yet the ERG are falling in line. Which just goes to show, they wanted their man in power for what comes afterwards. If it does go through life in Britain is going to get very messy.

Pleeeeaaase someone reassure me this shitty ‘deal’ isn’t going to make it through parliament. Please.

This is going to destroy our economy, result in the NHS being sold off to Trump and his mates and screw over normal people and their working conditions.

Corbyn is also a **** disgrace. He is going to sit on his hands whilst we are sold down the river.

Cougar…

It may well not be racism, but it’s the very definition of xenophobia – a fear or dislike of something “other,” something strange or foreign.

I think perhaps the stumbling block here is inferring that xenophobia is inherently Bad. It certainly has the potential to be, but wanting to spend time with people whom you have something in common with is a fairly natural human reaction. I mean, most folk would choose to go to the pub with their mates rather than a bunch of strangers, wouldn’t they?

I think that’s what Steve is trying to say? But going from here to racism is rather a fine line, isn’t it.

More or less….
I think xenophobia is quite natural… and a huge big grey area. At some point it can side up with racism/other-ism… and more importantly I think/believe it can be used as a lever to create racism/otherism.

This grey area is not just about race or religion (in the strict sense perhaps*).. for example I’m xenophobic about going in a Wetherspoons full of Brexiters (* hence perhaps).
I’m just uncomfortable having to listen to their crap…. and their expectation I go along…

So whether its some bloke in Abergevenny saying “I don’t want a huge influx of English” or the same bloke saying he doesn’t want a huge influx of Somali’s it’s the same thing… or for that matter some Spanish bloke saying “we don’t want more English buying property here with their English pubs and English Cafe’s”

I think it’s perfectly acceptable… in the same way I feel I should be able to say I don’t want to go to a Wetherspoons of Brexiters…

What I think is important is how that fine line can be pushed… if you refuse to let people have their opinion shouting them down (so to speak) with racist/homophobic/misogynist etc. and you tell them that enough then sooner or later many will actually start to behave that way when they are accepted elsewhere.

It’s like telling a child they are crap every day of their life..

My point of saying this is because I believe their are many leave protest voters who actually fall into this category, indeed Leave has spent a long time grooming them.

I have one friend who is spouting racist crap…along with other Brexit crap for example… I can practically see the analytics and sentiment analysis that has identified him as “vulnerable” and targetted him …based on his posts and views… or another devout catholic one.. again based on the crap he’s posting I can practically design the analytics and how to segregate…in his case it was probably something to do with gay marriage or women priests…

The money behind leave is from a fairly nasty set of people… and they have pulled off a master coup… against all facts they have managed to get a whole load of turkey’s voting for XMAS….
I find what they are doing way more sickening than some bloke saying I don’t want my estate overwhelmed by <<insert here>>

Corbyn is also a **** disgrace. He is going to sit on his hands whilst we are sold down the river.

The way he’s be talking suggests he’ll whip against the deal?
There might be a few labour rebels, but more volitile are the indie MPs..

Anyone know the composition of them currently? I know a few are exiled Tories who might be looking to weasel thier way back under the tory whip..

You’re a bit late, but welcome to the thread.

Looks about 50/50 that it’ll fly.

Almost more depressing is if it does go through Boris is all of a sudden a Brexit hero for the 52% and would surely win a general election all because of a few labour rebel’s , what a mess Corbyn has made of all this .

Oh so very much this. Deal through on Sat and we have 5 more years of this shitshow in #10.

OTOH, if it doesn’t he is toast.

Corbyn, yes, has been intently paddling his canoe upstream away from what looks like the biggest open goal going, which would also be coincident with saving the country from being screwed over.

kelvin

You miss my point @Cougar… it may not be xenophobia at all… they might just dislike young people, noisy people, church bells, joggers, shell suits… I dunno… “culture” is such a wide term that more specifics are required. Many people currently hide behind the term when they’re really just racist… so when someone votes because of a fear of being isolated within a culture they don’t like… questions have to be asked. Find out what they mean. Don’t assume they’re racist… but if they aren’t, they need to articulate what they don’t like, not just keep saying “culture”.

it may not be xenophobia at all… they might just dislike young people, noisy people, church bells, joggers, shell suits…

That is “culture” and “fear or dislike of it” is xenophobia.

Don’t assume they’re racist… but if they aren’t, they need to articulate what they don’t like, not just keep saying “culture”.

You are making it very difficult…. re-read what you wrote.
“Don’t assume but it’s up to them to prove otherwise.” (paraphrased) it seems to me like an assumption of guilt but then to extend the court analogy, in the meantime everytime they try and articulate they are being heckled with “racist”, “mysogenist”… and to get a bit historical it seems a lot like a literal “witch hunt”

Corbyn is also a **** disgrace. He is going to sit on his hands whilst we are sold down the river.

And how exactly is he sitting on his hands? He’s already declared his opposition and he’ll whip his MPs to vote against it. What else do you want him to do?

moonsaballoon

Almost more depressing is if it does go through Boris is all of a sudden a Brexit hero for the 52% and would surely win a general election all because of a few labour rebel’s , what a mess Corbyn has made of all this .

Frankly that typifies WHY….
I’ll take Boris or Corbyn for however long because it’s reversible.
Other than leaving there is little Boris can do that can’t be undone… it might be crap but the world will go on and things will be repaired for our children.

dazh

And how exactly is he sitting on his hands?

He’s been sat on his hands since 2015… trying his best to use this to get elected.

Meanwhile,

Boris Johnson Brexit deal hits late legal challenge as it breaks legislation from… Jacob Rees-Mogg

which country would refuse it though?

It would be “countries” plural showing solidarity or a country that Boris managed to get on side.

Apparently a deal is done according to BBC.

If the Parliament agrees to the deal then the surrender treaty is signed.

Looks like Tories will be doomed in the next GE.

All these political elites need hammering …

If the Parliament agrees to the deal

… if.

At this juncture, honestly whoTF knows. They kicked out May’s “done deal” multiple times, but with a fortnight to B-day they might agree to this out of sheer desperation. I wouldn’t like to bet good money either way, I expect it’ll be close. Assuming it’s not found to be illegal in the next two days, anyway.

What was that popular phrase a year or two back? Tick. Tock.

Analysis of the deal from CNN Business, worth reading. From same site,a break down of main differences from May’s deal. Almost all are “not good” in my opinion…

Warning, you won’t sleep better on Saturday night if this goes through…

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/17/business/uk-economy-brexit-deal/index.html

Summary: More damaging than May’s deal, huge increase in bureaucracy and we are going to be a much, much diminished county 10.years from now.

its going to fail,

it wont get approved,

EU wont give an extension so we will end up barrelling towards a no-deal.

Last minute revoke of article 50 will save the day.

In of not approved by parliament I’m hedging towards an extension and either a GE or referendum.

The EU have indicated an extension would be granted…. But who really knows? Chaos.

And how exactly is he sitting on his hands? He’s already declared his opposition and he’ll whip his MPs to vote against it. What else do you want him to do?

Do? Now? Oh, nothing, darling. What is the point after three years?

But, I mean, one really does want one’s ‘opposition’ to oppose, particularly when it is a Labour ‘opposition’ that is, in fact, delivering the working people of this country into the hands of a bunch of free-market, profiteering, short-termist spivs. Presumably in the vain hope that the lumpen proletariat will wake up after five years and deliver a socialist utopia via the ballot box, or somesuch shit that the Momentum six formers have imagined for themselves.

But carry on as you are. Deny that Kinnock and his clique are just running scared of their racist constituents. Deny that Corbyn wants the Brexit shock nearly as much as the disaster capitalists, only he is too doctrinally fixated and thick to realise that ‘his’ electorate have already been brainwashed by the Daily Mail and the Sun. Deny that Hoey and Field are just as xenophobic and racist as the Home Counties Himmlers, they just say ‘grass’ rather than ‘grarse’.

^^ Sadly, you do make a very good point.

Deny that Kinnock and his clique are just running scared of their racist constituents. Deny that Corbyn wants the Brexit shock nearly as much as the disaster capitalists, only he is too doctrinally fixated and thick to realise that ‘his’ electorate have already been brainwashed by the Daily Mail and the Sun.

I’ll deny those things, you’re talking bobbins.

The end result of Corbyns Disaster Socialism will feel exactly the same as Johnson’s Disaster Capitalism for the vast majority of us.

The only difference is that he hasn’t even got the excuse that him and his rich mates will make a fortune out of it.

It’s just down to plain old ideological, 70’s, retro, Bennite, 6th form level, placard-waving, anti-EU stupidity

I’ll deny those things, you’re talking bobbins.

So Momentum are a forward-looking, outward-looking and progressive clique are they?

Corbyn is not sentimental towards what he sees as the working class and believes they all have a heart of gold and have just been temporarily misled?

Labour MPs weren’t caught on the hop by the red-toothed racism/xenophobia that their constituents displayed at the first opportunity? They didn’t then decide to sacrifice (to a greater or lesser extent) their inclusive core principles to pander to those people?

Bollocks. They’ve tried to walk both sides of the street for so long now they wouldn’t know what a coherent policy was if it slapped them in the face. And if they did, they would dismiss it as an up to date version of ‘The Durham Miners will never wear it’ to hark back to a previous bout of Labour Insular vs Open cowardice when it comes to Europe.

I’ll take Boris or Corbyn for however long because it’s reversible.
Other than leaving there is little Boris can do that can’t be undone… it might be crap but the world will go on and things will be repaired for our children.

Yep stevextc I would go along with that , a friend of mine lives in the US and i always point out to him his nightmare will end at worst in 5 years , hopefully sooner . I feel like were being dragged of a cliff with no way back.

I’ll deny those things, you’re talking bobbins.

It’s all down to Kinnock & co

Johnson’s deal abandons legal commitment to workers rights & standards, supposedly a red line for Kinnock, not to mention he was elected in a manifesto that promised a Norway deal

If they vote for Johnson’s deal they’re full of shit

From the Guardian live news link a page or two back:

Here’s the full text of the prime minister’s speech:

This has been a very productive day for the UK in the sense that the European Council has approved the deal that has been negotiated over the last couple of months and I thank them very much again for their work.

I particularly thank Michel Barnier and his team, I thank Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the commission, for all the personal effort that he has put into getting this deal done.

I want to stress that this is a great deal for our country, for the UK. I also believe it’s a very good deal for our friends in the EU.

And what it means is that we in the UK can come out of the EU as one United Kingdom – England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, together. And it means we can decide our future together. We can take back control, as the phrase goes, of our money, our borders, our laws, together. And we will be able to do free trade agreements around the world.

And we can also build now, after three and a half years, on our relations with our friends and partners in the EU and it will be a very exciting period now, as it were, to get to the positive side of that project; the extraction having been done, the building now begins.

I am very confident that, when my colleagues in Parliament study this agreement, that they will want to vote for it on Saturday and then in succeeding days.

This is our chance in the UK as democrats to get Brexit done and come out on 31 October.

This is our chance to focus on our priorities, the people’s priorities: the NHS; putting 20,000 police on the streets; lifting up funding of education across the country; the biggest expansion of the living wage.

Those are the things I think the people of our country want us to be focusing on, in addition to Brexit.

We’ve been at this now, as I say, for three and a half years. It hasn’t always been an easy experience for the UK. It’s been long, it’s been painful, it’s been divisive. And now is the moment for us, as a country, to come together. Now is the moment for our parliamentarians to come together and get this thing done.

And, as I say, to begin building a new and progressive partnership with our EU friends, with whom of course we share so many priorities.

So yay, post-Brexit we’ll be able to do all of those things that we could have done all along anyway. **** my old boots.

Dannyh, you and I want the same things.

I however appreciate that you can’t expect the opposition to just jump to whatever you want. It’s not just a case of ‘Well I don’t want that, so everyone else who doesn’t want it must want what I want’.

Do you watch football matches and shout ‘Shoot! SHOOT!’ every time your team has the ball within 20 yards off goal because you like great goals?

Quick question as I’m lost in the noise…

If deal voted through and we did leave end of month…. Still a transition period till 2022??

14 month transition if (when) we can’t nail.down all.the details before then possible extension

Random question, I’m not fully versed..

Is momentum in labour the same thing as the ERG in the tories, basically an extreme splinter faction?

Question Time is on. Let’s all try not to laugh while whatever Corbynite nodding dog gets the joy of trying to explain what Labours position is in less than ten minutes

BBC reporting that Labour MPs voting for the deal will not lose the whip – looks as if Corbyn wants Brexit out of the way.