MPs win bid to hold second referendum vote

MPs have won a key parliamentary vote paving the way for a Commons bid to secure a second referendum on Saturday.

Tory backbencher Sir Oliver Letwin led a successful bid to allow backbench MPs to amend Boris Johnson’s Brexit plans, in a knife edges vote that passed by 287 votes to 275.

What has Johnson promised the EU if Juncker is coming out with no further extension.
Not even for a referendum?

The clever* bit has emerged; part of the deal struck by Johnson is that the EU will rule out an extension; making it Johnson’s deal or no deal, attempting to rule out Johnson’s deal vs remain.

*We’ll see.

What has Johnson promised the EU if Juncker is coming out with no further extension.
Not even for a referendum?

I can’t see them saying no to another referendum on the deal vs revoke. If that’s the case and Corbyn still won’t support it then any shred of a doubt I had about him being vaguely competent will be gone.

I watched Junkers speech – he didn’t rule out an extension. He said “We don’t need an extension as we have a deal”

It is being reported by the BBC that Juncker has ruled out a further extension.

Hah! No deal it is then, unless this is an EU bluff to trip up the ERG.

I watched Junkers speech – he didn’t rule out an extension. He said “We don’t need an extension as we have a deal”

But this is what I heard.

agree Junckers comment is being reported a bit different to how he said it.

Not surprising that Jean-Claude Juncker wants to quash talk of an extension. EU dearly wants Brexit over and done with.

In reality, if UK asked for delay, under Benn Act, hard to see that the EU would say no.

— Jennifer Rankin (@JenniferMerode) October 17, 2019

From BBC website…

The European Commission President says he spoke to Boris Johnson 30 minutes ago about the prospect of an extension.

Jean-Claude Juncker told reporters: “I was ruling out that there would be any kind of prolongation.

“If we have a deal we have a deal and there is no need for prolongation.

“That is the British view and that is my view too.”

Asked about whether the Commons would allow it, he said: “I am not in charge of Parliamentary affairs of Britain.”

Guardian has a breakdown of what Juncker said

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/oct/17/eu-leaders-gather-for-summit-as-boris-johnson-scrambles-to-get-backing-for-brexit-deal-politics-live?page=with:block-5da86be18f08c78d1cb4e1b2#block-5da86be18f08c78d1cb4e1b2

Interpret it how you wish. It’s down to the UK parliament now, is my interpretation. UK gov and EU not talking about an extension. By 11pm Saturday, they probably will be.

It’ll be no deal – Labour can’t be seen backing it, DUP won’t and neither will the ERG (who will now smell the potential for a no deal brexit).

Ooft. Nailbiting season finale.

ERG have already lauded it as “a great deal”

If parliament votes this thing down, then the UK and EU don’t have a deal.

Junckers comments really are not helpful. The deal is not a done thing within the UK.

Andy: “Want a deal.”

Lou: “But Andy, you had a deal only last week.”

Andy: “Yeah I know. Want that one.”

Lou: “Well, OK Andy, we’ll get you a deal. Here you go.”

Andy: “Don’t like it.”

Lou: “Well, what a kerfuffle.”

Junckers comments really are not helpful

They’re helpful for Boris…

Junker has clarified his comments

About to get on a plane back but just on Juncker’s words on extension. EU source says: “It’s not in his gift to rule it out, he is just defending the deal and saying one shouldn’t be needed…I am 100% certain EU27 would permit an extension if deal falls on Saturday.”

from Lewis Goodall on Twitter

EDIT:
P.S. Why is it that the more I learn about any subject the more I despair of the kneejerk TV media coverage.

ERG have already lauded it as “a great deal”

Without reading it. Lots of scope to row back from that position.

Is a binding referendum pitching this deal v remain now a realistic scenario without the a GE in between?

Or is it now this deal or extend and have a GE first?

What’s the odds on it getting exactly the same number of for and against votes as Mays deal?

Labour won’t support a ‘Tory Brexit’, the DUP wont support it, so neither will the ERG.

No deal, here we come!

That puts Nicola Sturgeon in a bit of a fix. She has consistently ruled out No Deal but can’t possibly support a deal which leaves NI in a customs union that doesn’t include Scotland.

Labour won’t support a ‘Tory Brexit’, the DUP wont support it, so neitgervwill the ERG.

No deal, here we come!

If the deal doesnt make it through parliament, then an extension is requested via the Benn act/amendment

I suspect the only way the deal could make it through parliament is with a ref2 amendment attached, Bojos deal Vs remain.

Interpret it how you wish

Britain started off asking to leave and ended up being kicked out.

If you go back to the start of the thread, not even the most extreme brexiters were in favour of a Brexit this hard. It’s Norway minus all the good bits.

useful

this guy gves johnson a 10% chance of getting vote thru commons unscathed

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EHFd6M8XUAAVj8L?format=jpg

What has Johnson promised the EU if Juncker is coming out with no further extension.
Not even for a referendum?

It’s a terrifying prospect, I can’t tell whether he’s trying to encourage Centrics to vote for it to avoid no-deal, or to encourage them to shoot it down an push ahead with the VONC to try to end it all.

He might just be as fed up with the whole thing as everyone else.

Sensationist headlines at BBC in my opinion, Jucker was saying there’s no need for an extension because of May deal 1.4 Boris deal.

scotroutes

Member
That puts Nicola Sturgeon in a bit of a fix. She has consistently ruled out No Deal but can’t possibly support a deal which leaves NI in a customs union that doesn’t include Scotland.

sturgeon is fine

EU official on Juncker’s no extension remark: “Bullshit.”

— Matthew Holehouse (@mattholehouse) October 17, 2019

I suspect the only way the deal could make it through parliament is with a ref2 amendment attached, Bojos deal Vs remain.

Agreed.

Not only that, but what’s the alternative? To seek an extension, and for what…? If we tell the EU it’s for us to fight several elections, and perhaps end up with No Deal… or yet more can kicking… why should they put up with that? An extension for a referendum, resulting in either the agreed Withdrawal Agreement being ratified and trade deal talks proper being kicked off, or the whole thing being called off and the UK staying in the EU… that narrows the outcomes for them, and gives them the knowledge that the extension will actually end with a resolution, of sorts.

When does Junker move on by the way? Soon?

ermmmmmmmmm?

So an unelected, retiring bureaucrat says: No extension, take this new treaty or just leave.

He is overriding the Benn Act. The EU shows itself to be a thuggocracy – power without accountability.

Appalling people.

— Nigel Farage (@Nigel_Farage) October 17, 2019

No matter what happens, some things never change…

Magic Grandad still happily sat there on his fence

Lol Farage, hahah! desperatley clining onto what little relevence he still has 🙂

its all about the labour rebels

@stevextc I agree about conflating xenophobia with racism, but I equally dislike either driving government policy.

As for culture, I still don’t get your point. If you don’t like to live surrounded by people of “another culture”, you need to define what that culture is to explain your concerns and motives for others to decide if that is born of racism, xenophobia, or something else. Just waving around the word “culture” is meaningless… and doesn’t magically transform concerns to “not racist” or “not xenophobic” without looking at what is meant be a culture different to your own.

My point is debate is not getting that far because it is shut down the minute someone say’s “I don’t like it when my neighbourhood is dominated overwhelmingly by….”

I don’t like it when my neighbours are _________ ?

Based on the xenophobes I know the issue is not who lives next door but if the overwhelming majority of the surrounding 1000 families are all from a single culture (as they themselves define it).

This is the same as many of the non-xenophobes I know, a large percent being immigrants or mixed origin themselves. (I count our family in this and also my Dr friend by which I mean people with a preference for a multi-cultural neighbourhood)

The main difference is in general the more xenophobic ones are voting leave because they get called racist by remain for saying “I don’t like it when my neighbourhood is”

My dirty maths even with full tory backing:

Party		Seats		Against bojo
Conservative	288		-
Labour		244		220
Independent	36		28
SNP		35		35
Liberal Dem	19		19
DUP		10		10
Change		5		5
Plaid Cymru	4		4
Green Party	1		1
Total seats	642		322
			

			
Maj more than	321

<p lang=”en” dir=”ltr”>People’s Vote MPs pulling back from having any second ref vote on Saturday – say it’s now not the time, better to wait (they don’t have numbers among former Tory MPs)</p>— Rowena Mason (@rowenamason) October 17, 2019

<script async src=”https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js&#8221; charset=”utf-8″></script>

Struggling to embed tweet but unlikely to be vote on another referendum on Saturday

agree Junckers comment is being reported a bit different to how he said it.

Outrage by Farage say’s it all!
Junker supports the British PM/clown saying we have a deal whilst answering a question from a journalist – Farage is outraged.

Alternate scenario…. Junker undermines our clown and say’s of course an extension is still possible… outcome Farage is outraged.

Corbyn this morning or rather “in his name”

From what we know, it seems the Prime Minister has negotiated an even worse deal than Theresa May’s, which was overwhelmingly rejected.

These proposals risk triggering a race to the bottom on rights and protections: putting food safety at risk, cutting environmental standards and workers’ rights, and opening up our NHS to a takeover by US private corporations.

This sell-out deal won’t bring the country together and should be rejected. The best way to get Brexit sorted is to give the people the final say in a public vote.

I am 100% certain EU27 would permit an extension if deal falls on Saturday.”

These unnamed “sources”could be anybody. I think that the reason Barnier and Junker are going so hard for a deal is that there’s a good chnace it’s their last chance. As my evaluation has as much validity as any unnamed “source” I’ll pitch in with a 50% chance of an extension being refused.