My bet is if the numbers stack up they go back into coalition with the tories.

Good. A coalition where one of the main parties is forced to get together with a party with a crystal clear remain mandate would be a 100pc good thing and at the very least would delay Brexit by 5 years by which time we might find one of the two main parties taking a remain stance and then Brexit won’t happen ever.

Job jobbed.

And when they’re out on the street intimidating people.

Ernie was pointing a finger at Europe and ignoring the support for and influence of the extreme right in the UK.

Jo Cox
Windrush, how many other EU countires had a programme of deporting long term residents from former colonies?

Hostile environment
Privatising essential public services
Victim blaming
Lobby group influence
Blatent sexism
Heavy-handed policing
ASBOs
silencing orders
discrimination against homosexual soldiers
Detention of asylum seekers and minors
no time limit to detention of immigrants
violation of privacy rights
No abortion in NI

And then ypu wonder why the extreme right Tories want out of the EU and ECJ.

My bet is if the numbers stack up they go back into coalition with the tories. Its clear ~Swinson is no liberal but a closet tory

I will have a tenner against that. No way will the Lib Dems go with Tories again (especially not teh further right party of today). Swinson would yes, but the party wouldn’t back it.

SNP will not “run away” from anything. They have been quite clear for a long time that they will not go into any sort of coalition with a UK party as they have no interest in england only stuff and so it would be wrong of them to do so

S&P perhaps. abstain on a queens speech perhaps. Full coalition would be grossly hypocritical

Kerley – Swinson is the one who decides ( not the party – it didn’t go to a party vote last time) – backed pastry and pig products based betting only for me

it didn’t go to a party vote last time

Yes. It did.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/may/16/liberal-democrats-conference-conservatives

One of the small parties *will* almost certainly be put in a position where they have to help one of the big parties. Even if they really refuse to get involved at all refusing to work with party A inherently helps party B.

…but apart from anything else there is no future for a party that openly will not accept Government because it makes them unpopular. People only vote for a party because they want it to have office at some point.

There was a niche for the LibDems because the big parties always won a majority so they never took unpopular decisions but could still strive to win. Those days are over, the small parties can’t hide from responsibility any more.

My bet is if the numbers stack up they go back into coalition with the tories. Its clear ~Swinson is no liberal but a closet tory

My bet is that ‘traditional’ Labour supporters are starting to get twitchy now that the constructive ambiguity (aka fence-sitting) strategy will stack up very badly against ‘Brexit at all costs’ or ‘Revoke at all costs’. If one lesson can be learned from the last three and a bit years it is that equivocal and vague messaging is not a winning strategy.

It was always going to come to this because Labour are hopelessly split – maybe even worse than the Tories.

“situation”

Luxembourg’s PM is not happy about Brexit: “This Brexit is not my choice. It’s been a decision from the [Tory] party. It was a decision from Cameron to do it. I deeply regret it, but don’t put the blame on us, because now they don’t know how to get out of this… situation.” pic.twitter.com/l3DhCKG9CD

— Damon Evans (@damocrat) September 16, 2019

So I’m MORE anti-democratic and racist than a fascist?

Me too apparently. I hadn’t realised.

My bet is that ‘traditional’ Labour supporters are starting to get twitchy now that the constructive ambiguity (aka fence-sitting) strategy will stack up very badly against ‘Brexit at all costs’ or ‘Revoke at all costs’. If one lesson can be learned from the last three and a bit years it is that equivocal and vague messaging is not a winning strategy.

+1

…and it’s too late to change. If Labour pick a side now nobody is going to buy it.

Mind you, having a losing strategy is kind of a winning strategy, who on earth wants power right now?

O)OB – SNP policy on this is very clear and coherent. Remember they have experience of running minority governments. the most labour will get from them is S&C There is no way and no reason to go into coalition and would be grossly hypocritical to do so.
50 snp mps will be a force in the commons tho and will vote against any tory queens speech

My favourite episode of The Incredible Hulk is the one where a small group of people shouted too loudly so he ran away

— Michael Deacon (@MichaelPDeacon) September 16, 2019

Luxembourg govt source says the request to have the Bettel Johnson news conference inside came at the last minute – it was, said the source, impossible for logistical and security reasons to relocate everything inside because the Lux PM's office was too small to host all press

— Tony Connelly (@tconnellyRTE) September 16, 2019

The Incredible Sulk.

Are you running away prime minister? pic.twitter.com/wyC7rNCmnH

— Bruno Waterfield (@BrunoBrussels) September 16, 2019

Angela Smith getting herself in a tinge about Revoke Article 50 … what you saying Libbers? – It’s easier to come down on one side or another or maybe that fence-sitting is not so bad after all.

https://twitter.com/ToryFibs/status/1173541612879847424

The Invisible Sulk more like 😉

@Rone, she’s not the only one of their MPs to get in a muddle over their new policy. What was your point exactly?

She wants a Deal vs Remain put to the people ahead of an election. I don’t like her… but there are plenty of people pushing that up the agenda now… and for good reason. It’s the current Tom Watson pivot point… if you like to see things that way.

An LBC caller on the Eddie Mair program has just said that Boris Johnson has played a blinder with the EU and the Luxembourg pm was very rude.

Not exactly sure I see it that way but crack on with your magic beans you **** deluded nut job

Millions will see it that way. Johnson will do no wrong in their eyes, as long as he keeps pushing for Brexit “do or die”.

rone,

work with opposition to get referendum, then, campaign for revoke in a GE

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49706643

“The Liberal Democrats have pledged to cancel Brexit if they come to power at the next general election.”

“Ms Swinson also confirmed that before an election is called, the Lib Dems would continue to work with other opposition parties to campaign for a further referendum, and to prevent a “dangerous” no-deal Brexit.”

i.e. exactly what she is trying to say in that clip, whilst being interrupted by the host.

Shame on Boris for running away. He should’ve torn his clothes off and started smashing up the office.

It’s a continual internal battle to keep the rage from releasing the green monster.

It’s a continual internal battle to keep the rage from releasing the green monster.

However the purpose of doing so is quite obvious. It is to maintain the continuing narrative that the half of the voting UK electorate who voted Brexit are racist. The actual reality that Far-Right enjoys no electoral success in the UK, unlike most of Europe, is quite simply ignored (awkward facts such as Tommy Robinson losing his deposit are dismissed as unexplained bleeps)

It is of course precisely the same dog-whistle politics – insinuations, inferences, and conjecture, that the Daily Mail is guilty of.

One of the fascinating revelations I have discovered about the Brexit debate is the apparent complete lack of self-awareness shown by middle-class liberals. Crass stupidity, anti-democracy, and racism, is what they accuse those who disagree with them of, all the while ignoring those identical failings in themselves.

There are far too many examples to mention but here are a couple more.

They claim to be “internationalists” but the whole EU project represents apartheid on a global scale. “Separate Development” which is the governing principle of apartheid ideology, goes to the very heart of the EU project, but instead of awkwardly and irrationally drawn Bantustans territories continents are used as defined boundaries.

I once asked a Remainer why Bangladesh could never apply to join the EU, she instantly replied that they could apply to join ASEAN. Apparently segregation isn’t racism. No one told the segregationists of the Deep South in the USA that whites only public lavatories were okay, as long as black people were also allowed to have their own public lavatories.

Another, completely different example, is the middle-class liberal attitude towards the alleged crass stupidity, and lack of political sophistication, of those who disagree with them, which apparently makes them unfit to have a political opinion (unless it doesn’t contradict their own). On this very thread people were proudly announcing that despite voting Labour all their adult lives they had voted for non-Labour Remain candidates in local council elections.

Now local council elections are solely about providing local services and infrastructure, they have nothing to do with the EU or membership of it. Presumably if someone has previously voted Labour in local elections it is purely because they believed that the Labour councillors would be the best for their local services. But they claimed that they wanted to “teach Labour a lesson”, so they voted for candidates that they otherwise wouldn’t have voted for. Local services and infrastructure were no longer important to them.

It was of course a classic case of crass stupidity, lack of political sophistication, and shooting oneself in the foot, imo, the very thing that they accuse those who voted Leave of.

But perhaps one of the best embodiment of middle-class liberal lack of self-awareness is Caroline Lucas. Lucas talks passionately about free movement, even after Brexit. But she of course talking about positive discrimination in favour of Europeans. She doesn’t extend that to the free movement of people from say Jamaica or Hong Kong. Whichever way you look at it it’s straightforward racism. It is every bit as racist as anything that comes out of Donald Trump’s mouth. Donald Trump too doesn’t make direct racists comments But most people on here would accept that he and his supporters are racist – building walls to keep certain people out, even if they have no legal right to enter the US, is racist, banning the Muslims from entering the US, even though they are not a race, is racist.

More recently Caroline Lucas has outed herself as not only being racist but also sexist. Last month, in an act of complete bourgeois liberal unawareness, she wrote to ten female politicians, all white of course, suggesting that they form an all female emergency cabinet to stop a no-deal Brexit (just read stop Brexit).

In an appalling example of gender stereotyping she claimed that women would see things from a different perspective to men. Although to be fair to Lucas she was forced to apologise for forgetting that she knew some black female politicians.

In most of Europe the challenge and the threat comes from the Far-Right, here in the UK it comes from the anti-democratic and neo-racist middle-class liberals. Those challenges and threats should be recognised and both opposed.

Magnificently altruistic stuff. Truly internationalist and forward-looking. Unfortunately utter bollocks when it comes to the domestic U.K. politics surrounding Brexit.

I’m looking forward to Ernie delivering the message to some ‘traditional Labour voters’ in somewhere like Rotherham or Rochdale. “OK lads, the real reason for wanting Brexit is to level the economic and political playing field for third world nations where lots of brown people live”.

If Corbyn et al were running scared of sandal-wearing Grauniad types then that argument would be plausible. But they aren’t. Everyone knows the reason why ‘traditional Labour heartlands’ voted leave has bugger all to do with altruism towards foreigners. Everyone knows the polar opposite is the case.

Just been on Twitter which I try to avoid like the plague to look at the RNLI getting abuse.

Interstingly today ithe RNLI website crashed under the traffic from all the folk wanting to donate in response to this

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/sep/16/rnli-donations-surge-tory-criticism-work-overseas-lifeboat-charity

Rather a heartening result on that rnli thing I thought.

No, it’s limited by the sea. …and if you filled all the sea in it would be limited by the size of the planet.

It’s only limited by the sea when all other land is used at 100 percent efficiency.

Before you mention something about we only produce half of our food and are therefore already at our carrying capacity, if we really wanted to we could embark on a massive program of intensive farming. Vertical farms, urban hydroponics etc. Otherwise we already need to deport 30 million people.

But if you mean the people we can sustain with our economy, then we could probably double our population looking at HK and Japan.

What I would add though is that the equatorial regions that people are migrating from are those regions that cannot sustain the level of CO2 being dumped into the atmosphere by western consumption. Don’t throw stones in glass houses.

The actual reality that Far-Right enjoys no electoral success in the UK, unlike most of Europe, is quite simply ignored

So Barking (2006) and Harwich (2014) were not far-Right Fascist electoral successes? I am disappointed Ernie.

Interstingly today ithe RNLI website crashed under the traffic from all the folk remainers wanting to donate in response to this

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/sep/16/rnli-donations-surge-tory-criticism-work-overseas-lifeboat-charity

FTFY

Hah. You lot have all been clamouring for intelligent pro-Brexit contributions, now you have one – thanks ernie.

A heady cocktail of bollocks and insults (with no introspection of irony) feathered with just enough truth to make it appear plausible to a casual reader does not carry any more weight just because it’s written by someone who can form sentences.

And it’s not getting much of a response..?

I’ve had a -very- busy and trying day at work today. I might give it a go later if I’m sufficiently bored, though I’ve seen Ernie’s Wall o’ Text arguments before.

Actually, let’s just go with this.

the challenge and the threat … in the UK it comes from the anti-democratic and neo-racist middle-class liberals. Those challenges and threats should be recognised and both opposed.

How are these liberals anti-democratic and neo-racist, and what threats do they pose that we need to recognise?

Oh, and,

I once asked a Remainer why Bangladesh could never apply to join the EU, she instantly replied that they could apply to join ASEAN. Apparently segregation isn’t racism.

(Aside from “I’ll take shit that never happened for $200 please, Alex” with a side order of “why on Earth would they want to anyway?”):

It makes sense does it not, culturally politically and geographically, for an Asian country to join an Asian union rather than a European one? The obvious solution to your reductio ad absurdum hypothetical would be an EU / ASEAN union rather than individual countries joining a non-local union.

By that logic you might as well ask why the UK can’t join ASEAN. Oh, hey, we might be onto something here, that could be an option post-brexit!

And the answer in both cases is because the EU wouldn’t let it.

There’s a rather obvious flaw in your conclusion there, if we’ve left the EU.

Jordan Peterson levels of wordy nonsense from Ernie.

I’m joking BTW- Its not really a realistic idea worth talking about -Turkey is a realistic proposition and Russia- why don’t we let them join?

ION,

Fancy some new artwork?

ORDER! Art Print

(Now available to ORR-DERRRR!)

I’m joking BTW- Its not really a realistic idea worth talking about -Turkey is a realistic proposition and Russia- why don’t we let them join?

Still joking I take it?
Each member state has a veto.
Given the track record of turkey and Russia..
I’m pretty sure at least one of the 28(27?) would take issue with membership.

Turkey is a realistic proposition

It really isn’t. Talks have catastrophically disintegrated, in no small part due to their flagrant disregard for human rights (eg, the Purges). Accession requires a “yes” from all member states, and France and Germany have both emphatically said “not while we’ve got a hole in our arse” (and we could veto it also if we’re still a member).

It’s “realistic” in so far as hypothetically it might happen eventually if they get their house in order, but it almost certainly won’t be in my lifetime and probably no-one else’s.

Russia- why don’t we let them join?

Please tell me you’re still joking. It’s either that, trolling, or you’ve been under a rock your entire life.

Part of Russia could well join the EU, or the outer ring of EEA countries, one day. In its present form it wouldn’t want to, and would need to make big moves towards democracy to be accepted (oh, a timely reminder that there is far more to being a democratic country than having the occasional vote).