It’s only limited by the sea when all other land is used at 100 percent efficiency.

No, it’s a limited to around 57,308,738 square miles no matter what you do with it. (We’ll lose a bit to climate change and gain significantly less from volcanic activity/silting up/reclamation but let’s discount those for the sake of the “is land infinite or not” debate.)

Ukraine would have more chance, hence the problems there in recent years. Motherland won’t let it go.

Ukraine would have more chance, hence the problems there in recent years. Motherland won’t let it go.

That’s the basic reason behind Russia’s outrageous aggression in Eastern Ukraine. Putin hates the idea of any neighboring country being part of a bloc that might have some clout. Even worse when it is a former ‘satellite state’. Yes, I know Ukraine was a ‘soviet’ rather than a satellite, but you get the idea.

Good old ‘border incidents’ eh? The favoured ‘reason’ of international criminals down the ages.

It is a major reason why Putin funded Brexit propaganda, using Aaron Banks as a conduit for his dirty money.

dannyh Member

I’m looking forward to Ernie delivering the message to some ‘traditional Labour voters’ in somewhere like Rotherham or Rochdale. “OK lads, the real reason for wanting Brexit is to level the economic and political playing field for third world nations where lots of brown people live”.

My post, the first one on this thread for several years, was not, nor was it intended to be, making the case for Brexit. I really wouldn’t attempt to do that on STW’s very own echo chamber. If I was making argument for Brexit it would be from completely different perspective. As you quite rightly point out there is insufficient concern, right across the social classes, for “brown people” for it to provide a compelling argument.

The purpose of the post was to highlight the hypocrisy, which I politely referred to as lack of self-awareness, of middle-class liberals. The motivation for that was the reference on this thread, which is about Brexit, of a crude xenophobic Daily Mail article concerning the RNLI. I couldn’t see any reference about Brexit in that article. At the risk of repeating myself it was obviously relying on dog-whistle tactics……the same tactic as used by the Daily Mail.

Predictably what I posted has been extensively misrepresented, and all sorts of disingenuous and false claims alleging what I said made. Which I have to admit I find somewhat reassuring – no one does that if they have a better way to counter your argument.

Also predictably some people feel insulted by my comments, which of course goes back to my point of lack of self-awareness. I had barely hit the send button before the first insult came flying. Anyone with an opposing point of view is dismissed as stupid/racist/talking bollocks/etc.

Danny – you need to be aware that ukraines borders now encompass a much larger area than historically ( a big chunk of pre war poland to the west and chunks of pre war Russia to the south and east) – and that Crimea – the only bit Russia is really interested in – was put under Ukrainian control relatively recently 1954 IIRC as an autonomous region and that the people of Crimea voted ( I have no idea how fairly) to be a part of Russia not Ukraine.

Russias take over of Crimea is no where near as black and white as our press would have you think

I had barely hit the send button before the first insult came flying. Anyone with an opposing point of view is dismissed as stupid/racist/talking bollocks/etc.

+1

…and it goes both ways, if a remainer votes for the only party that is specifically standing in the upcoming election on a revoke and remain ticket they get called ‘yellow tories’. STW political threads are a strange intolerant place.

It might have been this comment

One of the fascinating revelations I have discovered about the Brexit debate is the apparent complete lack of self-awareness shown by middle-class liberals. Crass stupidity, anti-democracy, and racism, is what they accuse those who disagree with them of, all the while ignoring those identical failings in themselves.

Anyone who is racist or anti democratic is by definition, illiberal.

Assuming they are middle class is also a crass insult, so for you to act surprised when you say something that’s completely inappropriate, insulting and incorrect, when it gets thrown back in your face pretty quickly, is well.. Laughable.

OOB – they get called tory lite for their actions. Swinson has led the lib dems sharply to the right and is clearly far more favourable to the tories than to labour.

Judge them by their actions and their words. 20 years ago the lib dems were well to the left of labour and the SNP – they are now well to the right and almost indistinguishable from the tories of 20+ years ago. Illiberal, right wing, free marketeers, low tax, low benefits, privatise the NHS, anti equal rights.

Anyone with an opposing point of view is dismissed as stupid/racist/talking bollocks/etc.

In this case, you were just talking bollocks*. Not stupid or racist or etc.

*In a wider sense what you are saying makes sense, but I reckon your view would have been behind a mere handful of Leave voters if any. It simply is not relevant to the day to day shitshow that is Brexit.

I admire your idealism, but if anything, the U.K. has gone backwards in its political awareness (geopolitical and home politics). Still, dreams are dreams, eh?

Russias take over of Crimea is no where near as black and white as our press would have you think

Point taken. Putin doesn’t like strong neighbors, though, does he?

“I didn’t mean any of it, I was just being provocative.”

Yawn. Thanks, but no thanks, Ernie.

Also don’t confuse liberalism with the Liberal Democrats, they are kinda Liberal, more than most UK parties, but thier acceptance o exiled tories and Labour MPs has caused a lot of concern within the party. There have been several resignations (not MPs but grass roots members) over this.

Slurring Swinson for being a ‘yellow tory’ isn’t entirely unfounded. I personally don’t like her, but let’s look at the bigger picture here.

when Ernie said that neo liberals are racists that are a bigger threat than the far right…. Are we not allowed to call that out as bobbins?

I’m not sure that there’s been many convictions or terrorism of remainers, or MPs shot? There’s been some large & very peaceful marches, and no one does petitions like us remainers, but is that really a ‘threat’ ?

20 years ago the lib dems were well to the left of labour and the SNP – they are now well to the right

Oh, this is definitely true… all three parties have moved on so many issues. As have the actual Tories.

Now… EU membership… who stands where, compared to even 5 years ago…

Russias take over of Crimea is no where near as black and white as our press would have you think

Yup. Not least because (IIRC) Russia were supporting a democratically elected Government which had been deposed by pro-EU pro NATO rebels.

Who knows how fair the elections were but the rebels certainly weren’t elected at all.

…and, of course, the NATO front line has moved 600 miles towards Russia. Who can blame them for getting a bit jumpy. If Russia had moved 600 miles toward Germany we’d have nuked them by now!

I’m not saying Russia are the good guys here, but five minutes trying to see things from their POV would result in a far wiser strategy.

Of course Russia has China on their Border so maybe their biggest threat is coming from that direction and maybe the Yiwu–London railway line is a big risk for Russia and the nations it passes through will become Chinese satellite states.

Tj, you keep speaking in binary terms of left and right whilst ignoring the axis of Liberalism and authoritarian.

Oh good, it’s apology for Putin’s military authoritarianism time. Would be wise for the rest of us to back out of the thread and leave them to it…

Predictably what I posted has been extensively misrepresented, and all sorts of disingenuous and false claims alleging what I said made. Which I have to admit I find somewhat reassuring – no one does that if they have a better way to counter your argument.

Also predictably some people feel insulted by my comments, which of course goes back to my point of lack of self-awareness. I had barely hit the send button before the first insult came flying. Anyone with an opposing point of view is dismissed as stupid/racist/talking bollocks/etc.

And equally predictably you then play the man rather than the ball with any replies you get. I almost didn’t reply to your post in anticipation of you doing exactly that, because we’ve been here before.

You complain about insults whilst simultaneously insulting people, then in your next post you complain about people who are complaining about your insults, but at no point did you take the time to respond to any points made or questions posed in the interim.

Do you want to have a discussion, or do you just want to win a high school debating competition?

Oh good, it’s left wing apology for Putin’s military authoritarianism time. Would be wise for the rest of us to back out of the thread and leave them to it…

Hope that wasn’t aimed at me, lol!

Personally I’m very centrist, maybe slightly Liberal and slightly right if pressed, but over and above that I belive that any situation calls for a customised considered and fair approach for the better of all people, regardless, depending on the particular nuance of a particular scenario.

Cold hard lines sticking to strict philosophy from any tribe or political ideology is a bad thing.
Like the UK for example, we’ve had an uncomfortable compromise between capitalism and socialism for a long time.
Neither is one solution for all. It’s all about overall balance and fairness.

It wasn’t aimed at you… and I removed the Left Wing bit because it didn’t really apply to anyone involved… well, compared to myself.

Labor currently seem to be left wing authoritarians, the Conservatives are right wing authoritarians.. Two cheeks of the same smelly bum hole.

There’s a “nationalist>supranational” axis don’t forget … and of course all sane politicians are for a mix of both, just with different prioritisation. Just like the other political axes.

No worries Kelvin.. Wasn’t sure.

Swinson on the other hand seems to be trying to be authoritarian and Liberal at the same time.. Maybe she’s a lot more astute than I..

My argument is.. Why pick a stance and set it in stone, a unique stance is required for any unique situation, because all situations are unique in one way or another.

Dunno what I’m trying to say really, just that I’m sick of people in general subscribing to strict ideals in all circumstances when different ideals in certain scenarios are far better.

Why pick a stance and set it in stone

Totems for campaigners and voters to group around, and to differentiate them from others.

Also to use as leverage to move the positions of other parties. In many ways it stinks of a calculated unprincipled move… but I think it is informed by how politics has been working for the last decade, and by what seems to work.

What is really winding up the old school ‘donkey jacket’ Labour people is that their Momentum movement seemed so clever at the time. Ditch the middle ground, back to the class war, run up the red flag etc.

But Brexit has screwed all that because, at the end of the day, the ‘Labour heartlands’ voted for Brexit (a hard right policy) out of good old self interest and xenophobia, with a good dollop of racism chucked in. Bang went the dreams of going back to dusty school halls and debating the future of capitalism and who was first against the wall come the revolution. Idealism? Out of the window when the opportunity arose. The Momentum movement worked well on a stage at a festival, but not so much when faced with the stark reality of the inner motivations of the core voters.

Now they are shitting themselves because Corbyn has tried to walk both sides of the street for so long that the country at large think he’s basically a twunt. An easy target for the gutter press too. All his own doing.

Along come the LibDems with a definitive and absolute policy. It should not have come as a surprise. Cable couldn’t say the word ‘Brexit’ without the accompanying word ‘nonsense’ in the same sentence. Opportunist of the LibDems? Probably. But right now, they are the only party I can vote for.

It is Labour’s own fault that they chose this moment of national crack up to accidentally elect a nationally unelectable leader. As with most of Brexit, this would be hilarious if it was happening somewhere else.

But it isn’t. We are left being dragged towards disaster by an unelected cockwomble with no majority whilst the official opposition go MIA.

**** brilliant.

Cable couldn’t say the word ‘Brexit’ without the accompanying word ‘nonsense’ in the same sentence.

Straight after the referendum, he was all up for sitting back and letting others get on with implementing Brexit. But then he went on to lead the LibDems, and LibDem leaders have to put up with open votes on policy. So he was dragged into opposing Brexit at first… which is one of the reasons his media performances were so weak as leader, until right near the end of his time.

Judge them by their actions and their words. 20 years ago the lib dems were well to the left of labour and the SNP – they are now well to the right and almost indistinguishable from the tories of 20+ years ago. Illiberal, right wing, free marketeers, low tax, low benefits, privatise the NHS, anti equal rights.

Well I’ll be sure to check out all that stuff in their manifesto before the next election and compare it with the other parties.

Why pick a stance and set it in stone, a unique stance is required for any unique situation, because all situations are unique in one way or another.

I.think they are doing a farage, his clear brexit policy has galvanised the leave vote, in response the Tories are dancing to his tune.

I doubt for a minute Swinson believes libdems will win a GE outright, but their position as the party of remain gives voters a clear choice & gives them leverage against Labour

Imho brexit should be stopped by a 2nd ref but that will only happen if Labour are forced to back one & back remain.

Tj said of the lib dems..

privatise the NHS, anti equal rights

Think he’s had too much to drink today? Lol

Well I’ll be sure to check out all that stuff in their manifesto before the next election and compare it with the other parties.

I wouldn’t bother. The small parties can promise the moon on the stick safe in the knowledge they will only be in power as a partner and can drop all the expensive stuff form their manifesto. So a small party manifesto will always be full on pork barrel and means nothing.

In contrast I think a commitment to revoke and remain does mean something. Maybe they’ll have to compromise but they can’t reasonably assist Brexit which is significant if they hold the balance of power.

I.think they are doing a farage, his clear brexit policy has galvanised the leave vote, in response the Tories are dancing to his tune.

I doubt for a minute Swinson believes libdems will win a GE outright, but their position as the party of remain gives voters a clear choice & gives them leverage against Labour

Imho brexit should be stopped by a 2nd ref but that will only happen if Labour are forced to back one & back remain.

I think you might well be correct.
We just need labour to decide what side of the fence they are on.

It’s all well and good some people suggesting the libs should get behind labour, but they seem to be playing the ambiguity card with potential political allies.. Again.. Compromise it seems, is not what a corbyn lead labour is about. He’s a left winger, granted but he’s also an authoritarian.

Cougar Subscriber

You complain about insults

My apologies if that’s how it came across, it wasn’t my intention. I am perfectly relaxed about receiving insults. My comment was based purely on behavioural observation.

but at no point did you take the time to respond to any points made or questions posed in the interim.

Do you want to have a discussion, or do you just want to win a high school debating competition?

Erm no, I don’t want to win a debate.

Thanks for that info squirrelking.

Mr Van Rompuy was probably operating on the assumption, as most of the world does, that Scotland is a subordinate of England.

I suspect most high level figures in the EU have by now been made aware that Scotland is a country in an international treaty with England to form the UK, and not a subordinate or a possession.

The Scottish govt has been pretty busy with EU diplomacy trade missions over the last few years.

That’s what really pisses me off.
I’m technically British, but I’m half Welsh, 1/4 English 1/4 Irish so I could get Irish citizenship.

But why? Because a bunch of super rich tossers don’t want to pay tax?

I’m a British European for gods sake. I was quite happy with that.

You can’t call it democracy when a bunch of tax avoiding racists force me to choose an option.

I’m going to bed now lol!

A heady cocktail of bollocks and insults (with no introspection of irony) feathered with just enough truth to make it appear plausible to a casual reader does not carry any more weight just because it’s written by someone who can form sentences.

+1

mattyfez

Slurring Swinson for being a ‘yellow tory’ isn’t entirely unfounded. I personally don’t like her, but let’s look at the bigger picture here.

It’s probably a pretty fair assessment when you look at her voting record in parliament. It’s probably smart politics for her to go for the disaffected Tory voters too because they are unlikely to vote Labour under Corbyn.

That said she’s got  sufficienta history of distortions and outright lies for me to regard her as a slime ball.

Yeah, I tend to agree – the Lib Dem’s needed someone with more conviction and gravitas. You can be a centerist Lib Dem, one nation Tory or a new labour type whilst still having both. But there is a lack of them in both the liberal democratic and Labour Party. If we had someone like Clark gunning for the Lib Dem’s – they’d be polling 5-6 points higher.

My feelings towards Corbyn have softened a bit though recently, in light of the way he and his front benchers treated John Bercow upon his announcement of his resignation – even if it was to get one over the tories. Labour have managed to cause a great deal of very entertaining pandemonium recently.

+1

…and it goes both ways, if a remainer votes for the only party that is specifically standing in the upcoming election on a revoke and remain ticket they get called ‘yellow tories’. STW political threads are a strange intolerant place.

Nothing strange about it, it’s just a reflection of the political outlook that forms the majority of posters on this thread. Plenty of pro Brexit corners of the internet where this happens too.

It only looks like intolerance because there is a lack of voices of that viewpoint. So one person posts, and a half dozen call it out as bllx.

And calling someone out for allegedly talking **** isn’t intolerance. Censoring them would be, but I’m not sure that’s purposely happening here.

mattyfez

Member
Tj said of the lib dems..

privatise the NHS, anti equal rights

Think he’s had too much to drink today? Lol

That is precisely what they voted for – look at Swinsons voting record above, look at the Bigot they had as leader – Farron. Look at their actions in supporting a vile tory government.

Judge them on what they have done.

Edit – also look at the voting record and on record statements from some of the recent recruits. Its become a home for bigots and no doubt at all moved a long way to the right. I used to vote lib dem on occasion, I know quite a number of lib dem activists. The party is no longer recognisable as the one I used to vote for.