Petition over 2 million now

I don’t believe this disingenuous nonsense you are spouting. Sorry.

What don’t you nderstand about holding a vote and sticking to the result?

What don’t you nderstand about holding a vote and sticking to the result?

It’s as if you don’t bother to read the words.

Don’t disagree with the rest of your post but on the above, in a normal parliamentary democratic way the above is true, but not when the decision has been delegated to the people via a referendum. At that point MPs have forfeited their right to ‘do the right thing’ and must then accept what the people decide. This is a very simple and fundamental principle of democracy that everyone understands

Have a look at the Parliamentary Briefing Paper issued to MPs before they voted to hold a referendum. See Section 5, page 25:

This Bill requires a referendum to be held on the question of the UK’s continued membership of the European Union (EU) before the end of 2017. It does not contain any requirement for the UK Government to implement the results of the referendum, nor set a time limit by which a vote to leave the EU should be implemented. Instead, this is a type of referendum known as pre-legislative or consultative, which enables the electorate to voice an opinion which then influences the Government in its policy decisions. The referendums held in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland in 1997 and 1998 are examples of this type, where opinion was tested before legislation was introduced. The UK does not have constitutional provisions which would require the results of a referendum to be implemented…

At that point MPs have forfeited their right to ‘do the right thing’ and must then accept what the people decide. This is a very simple and fundamental principle of democracy that everyone understands

No, it’s the very democracy and sovereignty that leavers told us we’d lost.

Looks like it’s broken again.

Been on 2,002,343 for quite some time now.

What don’t you nderstand about holding a vote and sticking to the result?

Jesus christ. What don’t you understand about democracy being an ongoing process? We had a vote in 1708, why aren’t the Whigs still in charge? Shouldn’t we be sticking to the result?

Theresa May suffered the biggest voting defeat in history with her deal recently, promptly stuck it back in for a second and got battered again, and then tried for a third before being told to go away and come back with something different. Shouldn’t she have stuck to the result?

May utterly humiliated at the EU this evening. Refused her requerst for extension to 30 June, couldn’t get any answers from her as to what she will do if the WA does not get thru the commons next week so they took charge. Extension to 22 May if she gets the WA thru next week or until 12 april if she cannot.

How much more can she take? Its an utter personal humiliation for her.

May says she has formalised some kind of reassurance on the backstop, to present the WA to parliament. There are now two new possible different exit dates… and a formal mechanism for asking for a third one tied to a new way forward… request must be made before 12th April, and we must elect MEPs in that scenario. Lots of exit routes to avoid No Deal if we want… thanks EU… just down to our politicans to avoid **** it up further…

How much more can she take? Its an utter personal humiliation for her.

She will continue until they fire her. She is not a quitter, she will not bend or waver she will carry out the last task she is programmed with until the end.

Ultimately she is a terminator armed with some uncomfortable dance moves

May says she has formalised some kind of reassurance on the backstop, to present the WA to parliament.

Is one of the major ones to print it double sided in comic sans? FFS The EU have already said nothing will change with the deal, nothing she comes back with changes the backstop which in itself is just a handy excuse for not having to critique the rest of the shit show that is the WA.

A week to go and the Labour MP on QT clearly hasn’t got a ****ing clue what the Labour Party policy is. If he does, he certainly can’t articulate it

Is there one? Anybody know?

Nothing to worry about. No rush….

Binners, mate, seriously. At this juncture no-one other than you gives a shit what Labour’s policy, they’ve clearly been an irrelevance for ages. Why don’t you direct some of your ire at the people tasked with making decisions?

I like you and I agree with most of your posts here and outside of this topic of discussion. And I get that you’re angry, I really do, I want to see some opposition in The Opposition also. But you’re starting to sound like a parody of yourself.

Petition up to (just under) 2.14m now

they’ve clearly been an irrelevance for ages

Frustrating, huh?

Why don’t you direct some of your ire at the people tasked with making decisions?

He has been. Selective reading I feel.

Digging up some recent Binners quotes in this thread…

I never thought I’d see the day where a British Prime Minister called a press conference to directly incite some kind of mob rule, stir up a toxic form of nationalism and basically undermine democracy

If there is another Jo Cox situation then it will be entirely on her!

Well she’s spent the last 3 years ignoring everything other than what the DUP and the ERG have been telling her, so I doubt she’s about to start listening to anyone else at this point

This whole thing started as an internal barney in the Tory party, and it’s still just that.

What’s staggering is what they’re prepared to sacrifice for their little spat. The entire countries economy, apparently

All this talk of CU/SM etc. Isn’t this all future relationship stuff which needs the WA signed first before we even talk about it?

Yup

Jesus christ. What don’t you understand about democracy being an ongoing process?

I suppose you missed the bit earlier when i said a 2nd vote wasn’t impossible? Look, I get it, you’ve all convinced yourselves through various logical gymnastics that the referendum result should be ignored. I can assure you though that outside your little internet remain bubble people out there think very differently. Votes are votes, someone wins, someone loses, the result is enacted. That’s it. Good luck with convincing them otherwise.

He has been. Selective reading I feel.

Confirmation bias maybe. Fair point.

Look, I get it, you’ve all convinced yourselves through various logical gymnastics that the referendum result should be ignored.

No. No no no. You demonstrably don’t get it, because that’s not what most people have been saying on here for months.

I want to give you the benefit of the doubt but you’re surely just being wilfully obtuse now.

I get it, you’ve all convinced yourselves through various logical gymnastics that the referendum result should be ignored.

How on earth can you say its been ignored ?

It’s become. absolute focus of government for 3 years now, virtually everything else out aside, we are diverting £bns to Brexit, it’s seen the biggest increase in civil servants since the war. We are stockpiling food, medicines and have the army on standby. An entire new ministry has been created, every single political show/newspaper/website is 50% Brexit.

Whatever you can say about Brexit you cannot say it’s been ignored

And whatever happens it won’t be disappearing any time soon, we’ve got a decade more of negotiations to go, meanwhile we’re all still trying to figure out what it actually means…

Which is the ultimate reason it’s a shitshow that will please no one & common sense says we should ditch tomorrow….

How on earth can you say its been ignored ?

He’s not saying it should be ignored. He’s saying, incorrectly, that that’s what we’re saying.

Dazh

I can assure you though that outside your little internet remain bubble people out there think very differently.

Have you read all the recent polling data? Everything shows a consistent 8-10 point lead for Remain with 10-15% (oddly) undecided.

It’s not an internet Remain bubble that we’re in, it’s a “put your fingers in your ears and shout Leave” bubble that you seem to be in.

Now at 2.35m signatures.

There’s an interesting statistical correlation when you compare the map of the number of signatures (or lack of) for the petition and this one:

She’s burnt the bridges with the people who for some utterly bizarre reason were keeping her in post. The tory remainers don’t have any option now if a new no confidence vote is called by Corbyn, as it surely will be if her MV3 is defeated or no deal looks likely

The “utterly bizarre reason” is that everyone knows this is a poison chalice & spells political death, irrespective of the outcome, for anyone who takes the job in during this shit storm.

Corbyn is looking increasingly ineffective and hasn’t offered anything other than political posturing, and the Lib-Dems lost credibility long ago in many people’s eyes. Who/what is the alternative to May. I think she’s viewed within her own party as a necessary idiot and is currently serving a purpose for which nobody else in the Conservative party has the appetite.

want to give you the benefit of the doubt but you’re surely just being wilfully obtuse now.

Really? It seems to me that you and others are stamping on someone who dares to articulate an alternative point of view. It’s the kind of intolerance that got us into this mess.

How much more can she take? Its an utter personal humiliation for her

I guess Mr May tying her up and pooing on her in public has lost its thrill so she’s moved onto something even more degrading.

Really? It seems to me that you and others are stamping on someone who dares to articulate an alternative point of view. It’s the kind of intolerance that got us into this mess.

Plus 100. In any case this is my last post on this thread. I’ve stated my feelings enough, saying anymore will be pointless, so it’s time to butt out and leave you to it, Enjoy.

Really? It seems to me that you and others are stamping on someone who dares to articulate an alternative point of view. It’s the kind of intolerance that got us into this mess.

In the simplest terms…
Dazh accuses everyone of ignoring the referendum result and claims we. Are breaking the key pillar of democracy which turns out to be respecting a single point in time referendum

People give lengthy and very real explanation of why we feel its very different to that.

Dazh repeats same claim, won’t address any of the points raised or answer questions about his position.

And on and on and on.

It’s like listening to a brexiteer while the world crashes down saying but democracy.
What about Nissan, Honda, banking, investment, legitimate fears…
But democracy

Look, I get it, you’ve all convinced yourselves through various logical gymnastics that the referendum result should be ignored.

You owe me a new Irony-O-Meter. The last one just exploded.

Really? It seems to me that you and others are stamping on someone who dares to articulate an alternative point of view. It’s the kind of intolerance that got us into this mess.

I think you’ll find that a point of view that does not stand up to logic or scrutiny is being robustly criticised. Personalising legitimate disagreement and argument is the kind of intolerance that got us into this mess.

On that last point, I have also fell short a good few times, mind.

Marina Hyde absolutely on the money as usual.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/21/apocalypse-next-week-theresa-may-meaningful-vote

A beautifully angry piece of writing, and the best description of Mark Francois to date.

Dazh accuses everyone of ignoring the referendum result and claims we. Are breaking the key pillar of democracy which turns out to be respecting a single point in time referendum

The fact is that wishing to remain in the EU means ignoring the referendum result. It’s what I would personally like to happen but I recognise that it’s enormously problematic for the reasons Daz has articulated.

It’s interesting that the herd chooses to jump all over Daz.

As I have a couple of spare minutes, and to step away from the ‘he said, she said’ for a minute, I’d like to draw on a bit of personal experience to illustrate how insulated most of us have been from the world. Up until now.

Last summer on holiday my family and I met loads of other families with young kids and we had a great time. Only once did the chat move onto politics, thank god. The time it did I was chatting with a bloke from Waterford in the Republic. He brought the subject up. After chewing the cud for a bit he said “I think you’ll lose Sterling over it”. At the time, I thought that was just a throwaway line that someone had come up with, having not really thought things through. In that regard, I was a typical, complacent, Englander. Even up until relatively recently I still thought the same. But now it is crunch time.

Having spent the last two years desperately searching for an impossibility (a Brexit that is good for the UK – it doesn’t exist BTW), we are now on the verge of total economic suicide. Rather than stand up and face reality we are going to do this just to prove a point. Populism thrives when it offers simple solutions in a world that is intractably complicated, it is an attraction, but also an illusion. Anyway, I digress.

The time to choose is now. Revoke A50, May’s crappy deal or No Deal catastrophe.

Considering Sterling, there is only one way I can see to ‘keep’ it in any meaningful sense – revoke A50. Any Brexit, but particularly No Deal, means the loss of Sterling in a meaningful and, eventually, symbolic sense. The meaningful loss comes first. Sure, you can still have pieces of plasticky paper with dear old Queenie on them in your pocket, but they may become worth less than the plasticky paper itself. When toilet roll suppliers are stockpiling, this might actually help the currency retain some of its value. Personally I would spend it on copies of the Daily Mail, the notes themselves aren’t the most absorbent, so swapping them for a better grade of bog paper seems a smart move.

In the long run, of course, we will have to reapply to join the EU. At that point it is bye bye Sterling in even its symbolic sense.

It seems that my English arrogance (despite being a dyed in the wool implacable remainer) still allowed me to delude myself that we are somehow ‘special’ in some way.

We are not. And as the world faces growing crises that will require international unity (climate change, food supply), we have chosen precisely this moment to chalk ‘world go home’ on the doors and wish ourselves back into an imagined golden age of days gone by.

Our little moment of indulging our worst arrogance and prejudice will cost us dear, unless someone grows a pair over the next week or two.

Tick.Tock.

The fact is that wishing to remain in the EU means ignoring the referendum result

Is one way of spinning it. Its been very handy to shift any blame from the architects of leave.

Ideally a 2nd ref (3rd) would be on the outcome of the negotiations. Not repeating the same question like the pm does.

Forget all the promises this is what leave looks like do you want to do it?

The very will of the very people complaining to be asked and acted on.

The result of the ref will stand in history. The debates on it on record.

Leave seem to have the issue with Betrayal as the have not even come close to delivering any of what was promised.

Nudging 2.6 million now, by the way.

How on earth can you say its been ignored ?

I’m not, I’m saying you lot want it to be ignored, set aside, reversed or whichever way you want to phrase it. And I’m saying that will be a very bad idea     which will compound the core problem.

Am I wrong that you don’t want the result to be implemented? You can’t use the fact that it’s taken a long time or it’s just too hard as a justification. People who voted to leave will simply not accept this.

Nobody has ignored the referendum result. The machinations of the last couple of years have all been about finding a version of Brexit that satisfies the principles endorsed in the referendum without immolating the economy or the NI peace process. Trouble is, the inescapable conclusion is that this version doesn’t exist, certainly not within Theresa’s red lines.

The instruction given by the referendum result has been thoroughly explored, and found to be undeliverable. At this point we have to decide whether we want Brexit at all costs, Brexit in Name Only, or Remain.

I personally don’t think that a second referendum is the answer, mainly because I think there’s a good chance that remain would lose again. I would love to see the whole thing revoked, but increasingly I think the only way this can be resolved is a very soft Brexit. That acknowledges the referendum result (you can never satisfy the no-deal loons), without completely collapsing the economy.

I’d rather this national wound had never been ripped open, but I don’t think there’s any way to sew it up without leaving a significant scar.

Martin – when history comes to write the book on this absolute cluster-**** they needn’t bother. You couldn’t possibly have a batter account than just publishing Marina Hyde’s pieces in the Guardian from the last few years.

If you want to read something truly depressing, then this takes some beating. From yesterdays Guardian. How we’re now viewed from Europe. However this plays out our international reputation is in tatters. Its not even that we’re a laughing stock. Its far far worse than that. People now view us with a mixture of pity and contempt

Pathetic, incoherent, chaotic: Europe’s verdict on Brexit shambles

Am I wrong that you don’t want the result to be implemented?

It has been, as Rees mogg suggested we are thinking of a confirmation vote (especially important as moat Brexiters don’t seem to accept the current deal)

People who voted to leave will simply not accept this.

Go on evidence please. How many of them? Why do you think ignoring the majority will go down and is less important.
What are your thoughts on the current polling? It does seem.to say a majority are against no deal or mays deal (when asked separately)

In the long run, of course, we will have to reapply to join the EU. At that point it is bye bye Sterling in even its symbolic sense.

How so? Adopting the Euro is not compulsory.