and what this boils down to is the only reasons we are getting for leave is about a bloody opinion poll and respecting idiots who are trying to harm the country delivering a deal they don’t even want.

No mention as to how any of this fixes the country just how it might not be as bad as predicted.

As I’ve said many times, confidence in the democratic process is in my opinion much more important than our membership of the European Union.

Confidence in the democratic process comes from confidence that those carrying out the process are doing the right thing. That means putting country before party. This country and its citizens are best served by remaining in the EU. Yes the referendum demonstrated that there are a lot of people with misgivings (and I would add misunderstandings) regarding the EU and the relationship between it and member states’ governments. These issues need attention across the whole of Europe. Tearing up the union is foolish and serves to diminish the influence of both Europe and its individual member states.

It would appear relations between the PM and her chief whip are, erm, “strained”.

@slowoldman – Well said, sir.

no one is seriously disputing that on the whole the referendum was executed fairly and the result was clear.

I would say a close to 50/50% vote split is anything but clear, its is surely the definition of a ambiguous result in a yes / no vote?

The repercussions of the last 3 years will be felt for decades irrespective of how it turns out. The ideal scenario is remain, and then the election of a labour govt. I don’t see much hope of that though.

Half right – the ideal outcome is revocation / remain and then a complete total overhaul of the entire party political system, FPTP voting etc and the election (or appointment) of a cross-party centre ground Government.

And it would be nice if JRM, Farage, Gove, Johnson et al could all be found guilty of treason and locked up in the tower for a bit too.

Confidence in the democratic process comes from confidence that those carrying out the process are doing the right thing.

Don’t disagree with the rest of your post but on the above, in a normal parliamentary democratic way the above is true, but not when the decision has been delegated to the people via a referendum. At that point MPs have forfeited their right to ‘do the right thing’ and must then accept what the people decide. This is a very simple and fundamental principle of democracy that everyone understands. We ignore it at our peril.

I would say a close to 50/50% vote split is anything but clear, its is surely the definition of a ambiguous result in a yes / no vote?

Nice bit of revisionism there. Normally people wait a few decades before trying to change history 🙂

At that point MPs have forfeited their right to ‘do the right thing’ and must then accept what the people decide.

Utter utter BS, seriously it’s as if the kool aid has been flowing strong there!!

If you think it’s such a simple process that we vote leave and then we leave then you are mad!!

You are also missing the tide of public opinion that is moving away from leave, certainly doesn’t want No Deal or Mays deal.

This is a very simple and fundamental principle of democracy that everyone understands. We ignore it at our peril.

Where exactly is that written down?

Don’t disagree with the rest of your post but on the above, in a normal parliamentary democratic way the above is true, but not when the decision has been delegated to the people via a referendum. At that point MPs have forfeited their right to ‘do the right thing’ and must then accept what the people decide. This is a very simple and fundamental principle of democracy that everyone understands. We ignore it at our peril.

What if they didn’t agree to hold the referendum in the first place? Do they have to stand down?

What if ‘the public’ decided they wanted internment without trial or the death penalty?

I know, I know, straw men and all that, but there IS a line.

Yes, and the people having been asked to make a decision on the first question should logically then have to make decisions on the next decision and the next one, on the particular topic at least. Asking for public opinion at the start then subsequently ignoring it makes little sense.

Howevrer, if you consider that the original question was not an instruction, then it changes. Government could then have worked from that position. But people expected A50 to be enacted immediately, so the government felt bound to do it by public opinion.

Don’t disagree with the rest of your post but on the above, in a normal parliamentary democratic way the above is true, but not when the decision has been delegated to the people via a referendum. At that point MPs have forfeited their right to ‘do the right thing’ and must then accept what the people decide. This is a very simple and fundamental principle of democracy that everyone understands.

Clearly you don’t understand the process of representative democracy.

May ius in even more trouble. Loosing the confidence of the chief whip puts her in a really bad place politically. I think she might well lose a vote of confidence in the government now

There are reports around of an increasingly strained relationship between the prime minister and her chief whip, Julian Smith. According to ITV News’ Paul Brand, Smith “has been openly admitting today that he found last night’s statement in Downing Street ‘appalling’.

ITV quote Smith as telling a fellow MP the prime minister “just won’t listen” to him.

Firstly

Ah the good old replacing a word in a sentence with a synonym of that word to justify some faux outrage.

Tragic.

Cougar brought synonyms up not me, I dont think its OK that Cougar questions my honesty- no faux outrage here.

“I don’t believe you.”
“I don’t think I believe you.”

There is a perhaps subtle but very important difference.

I dont think you know what subtle means.

The correct answer when accused of lying/someone doesn’t believe you, if you know yourself to be truthful is “the great thing about the truth is that it doesn’t care what you think”

Getting wound up? Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

Yes in hindsight. And yes this lady doth protest too much (but just to be clear not in the way you mean it ;~) I am allowed to have a different opinion, I dont mind being challenged on that opinion but accusing me of lying for no good reason is out of order. I let it lie but seeing Cougar do a very similar thing to Dazh made me call him out on it again.

Asking for public opinion at the start then subsequently ignoring it makes little sense.

I’ve already said a 2nd vote wouldn’t be the worst outcome, but it can only happen if there is both a majority in parliament, and approval from the public. The former doesn’t exist, and we have no idea on the latter, which is why an election is required.

Howevrer, if you consider that the original question was not an instruction, then it changes.

Back to the ‘but it was only advisory’ argument. It’s irrelevant as long as the public believed it was an instruction, and they clearly did, and still do.

not when the decision has been delegated to the people via a referendum. At that point MPs have forfeited their right to ‘do the right thing’ and must then accept what the people decide.

Stridently stayed though that might be, it is also codswallop.

With that line of argument you are going to, again, end up backing yourself into one of those corners that inevitably await anyone arguing for Brexit being allowed to go ahead.

And FWIW, I strongly believe that the economic cataclysm that anything but the softest of Brexits will cause will do infinitely more damage to our ‘democracy’ than ignoring an advisory referendum ‘won’ narrowly by a pack of lies. The political nutcases want a No Deal for precisely this reason. Stopping Brexit will do political damage, no doubt, but the long term agony that going ahead will cause will lead us to a much, much darker place, and these political exploiters know it.

Jesus wept Educator get a life! CAP boils my piss but the EU are gradually reforming it for the better. Monbiot voted remain despite hating CAP so did I.

It’s irrelevant as long as the public believed it was an instruction, and they clearly did, and still do.

Fundamentally ‘no’.

I think she might well lose a vote of confidence in the government now

Indeed. She’s burnt the bridges with the people who for some utterly bizarre reason were keeping her in post. The tory remainers don’t have any option now if a new no confidence vote is called by Corbyn, as it surely will be if her MV3 is defeated or no deal looks likely.

A second referendum stops all the anti democratic nonsense dead as it is then clearly the will of the people.

Looks like the E.U. taking control of Mays Agenda. Unconditional extension until 12 April, and 22 May if WA agreed.

wonder where the adults are?

A second referendum stops all the anti democratic nonsense dead as it is then clearly the will of the people.

Unless you deal with the fraud surrounding the first ref, what is the point?

Only if the question is the same Remain vs Leave.

If its Remain vs TM’s universely derided deal then one side has been nobbled.

Only if the question is the same Remain vs Leave.

If its Remain vs TM’s universely derided deal then one side has been nobbled.

is that no deal or another fantasy leave?

Put one choice down and the other is remain. Again the current polling shows no leave option carries a majority. Remain does.

The only way you get a different deal is with a long extension and a political change.

Also if leave has been nobbled it’s been done by the ERG, DUP and the mad leavers.

ctk

Member

Only if the question is the same Remain vs Leave.

Yeah, because it’s not like that’s literally the reason that everything’s fallen apart, is it. You can’t just lump all the leave options, real and made up, together and claim votes for any as votes for all. Otherwise we could just end up in the same mess where a majority want to leave but only a minority will agree with any of the options

The petition is over 1,900,000 – that’s an incredible amount in one day.

Started with about 100,000 this a.m. I think.

EDIT: over 2 million now

it was about 300,000 this morning but it’s still incredible going.  Hoping it makes 2M by midnight

The numbers seem to be increasing more quickly than earlier, like it’s catching up on backlogged data

I think it is- it took half the day for me to get the email confirmation.

Yup. 1.5 million at tea time. Half a million since, in just a few hours. Wow.

150 000 on the petition when I signed late last night – well over a million and a half in 24 hours

no one is seriously disputing that on the whole the referendum was executed fairly and the result was clear.

Oh, I missed this. It’s demonstrably untrue as I’d dispute both of those statements.

At that point MPs have forfeited their right to ‘do the right thing’ and must then accept what the people decide. This is a very simple and fundamental principle of democracy that everyone understands.

This is a very simple and fundamental principle of democracy that you’ve just invented.

Unless of course you’d care to point me at the relevant English law which states that in the event of an advisory referendum parliament then immediately cedes sovereignty to the proletariat, in which case I’m happy to be proven wrong. Though I rather thought that parliamentary sovereignty was something of a tenet amongst leave voters. Isn’t that one of the things they keep telling us they knew what they were voting for?

I dont think you know what subtle means.

Oh, wait, I know the answer to this one now. You’re calling me a liar, right?

This is a very simple and fundamental principle of democracy that everyone understands.

I don’t believe this disingenuous nonsense you are spouting. Sorry.

well over a million and a half in 24 hours

and getting faster all the time.  looks like numbers are going up almost 3 times as fast as they were this morning.  I’m wondering what it could reach now

edit: and even faster now.  it’s quite mad. straight through 2M

When and where will it end?

At last May manages to unite both the country and the Commons

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/21/at-last-may-manages-to-unite-both-the-country-and-the-commons

“It’s A Shit Show”: Likelihood Of UK Crashing Out Of EU Next Week Is Higher Than It Has Ever Been

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-03-21/its-shit-show-likelihood-uk-crashing-out-eu-next-week-higher-it-has-ever-been

yes pants on fire

over 2 million now!

The TM-like lets get on with Brexit speech got zero applause on QT