Entropy, that’s what we are all watching really. Some how this video is very relevant I think.

It’s also interesting.

Chill out chaps. Chaos is normal. It’s inevitable in fact.

From BBC Ideas: ‘Why does time go forwards not backwards?’

https://www.bbc.com/ideas/videos/why-does-time-go-forwards-not-backwards/p0739285?playlist=universal-wonders

The fact that no can agree anything on here is proof how difficult it is out in the real world to reach a consensus.

I also despise the way politics has become about one issue for some people too.

You blame Labour/Corbyn being in a difficult position but at least they would try and address the disparity of the UK post Brexit.

What can we do as the voting public to basically raise a motion of no confidence in parliament. They clearly are clueless and working with many EU nationals who bring in their national newspapers, the UK has become a complete shambles in the eyes of the world so what can be done to oust every member of parliament and have a go ourselves?
Irrelevant of your persuasion I hope the EU now make us leave without a deal and every single MP should then be held accountable for the resulting outcome.

I will never Vote for the Tories again. Nor Corbyn. I wish more would join TIG personally and I’d welcome a move to PR & consensus politics.

I think she’ll get her deal through on the 3rd go. As ridiculous as that is.

Because without voting for it, you have a GE or another referendum and the Tories and DUP want that less than they want her deal. They’re too “big” to consider.

Irrelevant of your persuasion I hope the EU now make us leave without a deal and every single MP should then be held accountable for the resulting outcome.

Whilst I agree with your sentiments I feel that that sort of reaction from the EU would just bolster the stance from the hate rags and those pesky Europeans standing in the way of democracy.

FFS you lot are being as idiotic as the Brexiteers.

Ooh controversial. Come on, get with the programme, if they scream and shout, and stamp their feet enough about how it’s all so unfair and that evil rightwinger Jeremy Corbyn is ruining it for them they might just get their way.

Seriously though it is pathetic. My 11 year old has a deeper and more nuanced understanding of politics than many on here.

Who needs nuance when the main political options (in England) are:

“A Red, White & Blue Brexit”
or
“A Jobs First Brexit”

You blame Labour/Corbyn being in a difficult position but at least they would try and address the disparity of the UK post Brexit.

By any objective measure, the economy will tank post-Brexit. This is why the disaster capitalists are licking their lips. It provides them with the ‘opportunity’ they have always dreamt of to slash the state/open up the NHS/torch regulations an controls

You simply can’t address any disparities if your tax base has collapsed, your currency gone into freefall and unemployment has gone through the roof.

By any measure they will get worse

This is economics so simple, a 6 year old could grasp it, yet it seems beyond the intellectual capacity of the labour front bench

‘A Jobs First Brexit’ is an oxymoron

Binners with the right soft Brexit deal the economy need not crash. It would slow down, but then Labour’s plan is to boost growth via actively managing the economy rather than leaving it to it’s own devices which is what the Tories do.

And let me ask you this: would you rather have a bit less money in the country but have it much better distributed?

If you measure economic growth by GDP then you only see the total amount of money. Not how good a life the average person has. For example the USA has more GDP per capita than Sweden, but I know where I’d rather live.

And for the record, I’d rather have Corbyn and EU membership given the choice. But as it stands I’ll only get to choose one of those things.

If the governments analysis was right
Even a soft Brexit knocks 2% of GDP?

That’s a huge amount for the state to lose

The regional impact analysis all show that the poorest regions suffer disproportionately.

If this delay is ‘a long one’ as EU seem to suggest, would that not move some who don’t want T-bot’s deal but even less want a delay?
Maybe it will be 3rd time lucky.

Binners with the right soft Brexit deal the economy need not crash. It would slow down, but then Labour’s plan is to boost growth via actively managing the economy rather than leaving it to it’s own devices which is what the Tories do.

Yes, I get that. But we have to deal with the world as it is, rather than how we’d like it to be. We’re not heading for a velvety-soft Brexit, are we? Far from it! We’re heading for one where we leave the customs union and the single market. This will be economically devastating, by any measure, and you can’t raise your tax base for investment during a prolonged recession

And we’re heading for this form of Brexit because Corbyn whipped his MP’s to trigger Article 50, then again to rule out remaining in the single market or the customs union.

There policy since then has been complete fantasy red unicorns, an was always going to be completely unacceptable to the EU

So we are where we are, where whats probably the least worst option is now Mays shitty deal. I think it’ll be voted through, through gritted teeth next week too

Meanwhile the labour party is polling ten points behind this gang of utter incompetents because, somewhat unbelievably, they’re Brexit policy is even less credible. In fact, its economically illiterate

We’re not heading for a velvety-soft Brexit, are we?

I honestly think it’s still in play.

I’m sorry to say but i think my money is on May’s deal passing next week – and if not then, after the EU summit. Unless she’s somehow stopped from presenting the motion again, the majority against will be eroded away. The only hope is that the motion is amended into something better (e.g. her deal vs remain vs no deal ref or parliament vote on a range of options). It’s clearly better than no deal (anything would be) and the ERG have probably realised a long delay = no brexit, so they’ll fold.

I hope you’re right Molls, I really do.

But as it stands the policy of both our main political parties is to ‘respect the referendum’, end freedom of movement, leave the single market, and leave the customs union*

Does that sound anything like a ‘soft’ Brexit to you?

* Yes I know labour wants to be part of ‘A’ customs union of some sort, but thats just red unicorns with them ending FoM

But we have to deal with the world as it is, rather than how we’d like it to be.

How can you say that with a straight face when you and others on here are still in complete denial about the simple fact that remain lost the referendum? You talk about red unicorns when in actual fact labour’s policy is far more achievable and realistic than expecting brexit to be cancelled either unilaterally or through a 2nd vote.

And we’re heading for this form of Brexit because Corbyn whipped his MP’s to trigger Article 50, then again to rule out remaining in the single market or the customs union.

More remain unicorns. I’m really beginning to think that many remainers have the same disease as the climate change deniers. Faced with a reality that doesn’t fit with your world view, you simply construct a new one and convince yourselves it’s true, and then shout down anyone who disagrees.

Erm…ok Daz

I honestly think it’s still in play.

Of course it’s still in play. The only thing potentially preventing it right now is May’s deal sqeaking through if the tory refuseniks bottle the vote on Tuesday. What is certain is that May’s deal would already have gone through had labour adopted an anti-brexit, remain position. The only chance of a soft brexit is May’s deal being defeated. That can only happen if tory remainers feel comfortable voting with the labour party. The only way that will happen is if labour maintain the position they have since their party conference.

Seriously though it is pathetic. My 11 year old has a deeper and more nuanced understanding of politics than many on here.

but

How can you say that with a straight face when you and others on here are still in complete denial about the simple fact that remain lost the referendum?

and

Faced with a reality that doesn’t fit with your world view, you simply construct a new one and convince yourselves it’s true, and then shout down anyone who disagrees.

Have a word with your daughter, it’s a little more nuanced than you seem to think

The only hope is that the motion is amended into something better

There are a lot of shrewd operators queueing up to do something like this, so we’ll see.

Yes I know labour wants to be part of ‘A’ customs union of some sort, but thats just red unicorns with them ending FoM

They aren’t dim enough to think they can ask the same as May and get a different result. I think that ‘jobs first’ means they would preserve ease of trading at all costs, which would mean compromising on FoM. But they aren’t saying it out loud because it would cost them Brexiteer votes. This is a complex game, don’t take everything at face value.

How can you say that with a straight face when you and others on here are still in complete denial about the simple fact that remain lost the referendum?

Same way the PM can keep turning up for a vote on her deal.

Just for you Daz…

Labour leader maintains long-held, principled position of not supporting Labour Party policy

😉

They aren’t dim enough to think they can ask the same as May and get a different result.

Thats exactly what they’re doing Molls. In fact, its worse. They want even more concessions, yet have the same red lines. Pure fantasy Red Unicorns, comrade

I’ve reached the conclusion that Corbyn’s labour is now like the Lib Dems of old when they were on about abolishing tuition fees. You can promise everyone a puppy, a new car, unlimited holidays and their own pub, its not like you’re ever going to be in a position to actually deliver any of this, so why worry?

much talk of a second referendum producing a similar result to as last time, as few people have changed their minds. But has there been any consideration for the number of voters who will have come of age since the last referendum, or even those who are no-longer here to vote. It’s been 3 years since the vote, I’d expect a lot of the young would vote now that didn’t before.

Thats exactly what they’re doing Molls

I didn’t hear any specifics of their plan – which is what I was alluding to. I don’t think Corbyn has officially gone to negotiate, has he? Did I miss him becoming PM?

He has been for informal talks though so I’d bet that’s the kind of thing that was discussed.

But has there been any consideration for the number of voters who will have come of age since the last referendum, or even those who are no-longer here to vote. It’s been 3 years since the vote, I’d expect a lot of the young would vote now that didn’t before.

Yes, plenty. The demographic analysis points to a remain win.

Yes, plenty. The demographic analysis points to a remain win.

i presume the difference in predicted result isn’t much then, else more would be made if of it?

undoubtably a few “spitfires over dover” voters will no longer be present to vote leave, and a few young voters will be of age, the balance of voting last time suggests this would increase the remain %, if nothing else at all had changed

but maybe, just maybe, it is more commonly known now that the leave campaign was utter, utter fabrication, funded by dodgy donors and fronted by cretins, and will make us poorer as a nation, we can but hope.

I don’t think Corbyn has officially gone to negotiate, has he? Did I miss him becoming PM?

oh god! Here we go again….

Labours stated policy….

1. End freedom of movement
2. Leave the single market, but retain tariff-free access to the single market (Red Unicorn #1)
3. Remain part of ‘A’ customs union, but not ‘the’ customs union (more red unicorns. See point 1)

Unicorns! Everywhere!

Did I miss him becoming PM?

Come on mols, lets not pretend that Corbyn not being the PM has any impact on his culpability for not stopping brexit. I mean, all he has to do is declare himself against, whip his MPs into voting for a new vote and it will all magically go away and we’ll be transported back in time to 1997.

This is what Labour’s website says:

We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union – which are essential for maintaining industries, jobs and businesses in Britain. Labour will always put jobs and the economy first.

Last month Starmer said in this article that FoM is negotiable.

To me that means that some freedom of movement will have to persist. They aren’t stupid enough to splash incompatible things all over their website.

I see that The Times is reporting that Tusk has said that approval of a long extension would be contingent on a second referendum. Behind a paywall so I haven’t read the detail.

It does mention FoM, though it is buried in the mountain of PC flannel

From the same Labour party statement

Freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union. Britain’s immigration system will change, but Labour will not scapegoat migrants nor blame them for economic failures.

So thats the end of that. No FoM, no customs union, no singe market.

Thems the rules

Look! Unicorns! Red ones!!!

Well, I read that to mean ‘full’ freedom of movement. There would still be movement, it’s to be negotiated. My link doesn’t say they want to remain in THE customs union. It means a besoke arrangement. In other words, subject to negotiation.

Sounds exactly like May’s proposals… before they met reality.

Another referendum that ignores the result of the first is not unicorns but a deal that is very similar to Norway’s is?

Guess what Norway has. I’ll give you a clue. It starts with Freedom and ends with Movement.

a further clarification referendum – that is what it would be – it would be asking the question that after the negotiation this is what leave looks like