This’d be after he’d already commited to tabling the vote.

Right get your facts out of here, bloody sithformers getting in the way of ranting

Though I have to say they both either need to go or hand over responsibility for brexit to others. They don’t command the support of their parties on this.

People really aren’t that stupid

people believe what they want to believe whether it’s factual or not. I think that’s the main lesson of the past couple of years.

Tonight he was handed his arse

Yes, of course he was. This is what I mean. Despite the clear fact that May is the one who has been defeated, some still think Corbyn is the cause of all this chaos. It’s very odd.

You know that theory that this universe is a simulation ….yeah it’s stuck

The problem is he is not very good at the speaking and leading bit, he is also conflicted over brexit but I doubt he is secretly conspiring to deliver a full hard brexit – again you can’t be incompetent and a scheming evil genius can you.

In fact he is basically on par with May at this point, unfortunately we seem to have got ourselves into a stupid position of locking in the leaders and out 5 year parliaments as this is the one time where dispatching the leader or a snap election would do some good.

JRM et al ruined the tory one by going too late and too early, labour just can’t move fast enough unless he resigns.

I have to say I’m missing some plane speaking aussie action here, I still don’t think they have finished the portraits or sculptures for the last few yet. But being able to head off to a locked room kick the shit out of each other in private and call out the trouble makers seems to be what is needed.

But no, as usual party comes before country, comes before brexit, comes before everything. I hope now we’ll have no more of this Soubry is the real opposition stuff now that she’s shown her true priorities.

So is she a nazi then?

Hang on. We were told that Labour would only bring forward a Vote of No Confidence when they knew that were going to win it.

I saw a Tory MP on the news extolling the virtues of no deal. Explaining (lying) how we are actually already very well prepared for it…. With just a “few things” to sign off on of course.

That the actual!????

Forgive me if this has already been covered, but in the absence of even a ****’ ‘go to first unread’ sort of thing this forum isn’t even a throwback, it hasn’t gone forward enough for that. Someone was asking about the origins of our current clusterf**k.

The answer someone gave – in the absence of a proper ‘quote’ function i’ll have to paraphrase – was that it was to unify the Conservative Party.

I think it is quite important to properly sequence the events that have brought us to this impasse.

It started in 2014, with the elections for the European Parliament. It of course started way before that, but the more immediate cause was then. In the probably vain hope that an image will appear below, observe –

For the first time UKIP had a majority of the vote share in an election. Perhaps more significantly the Conservative Party were now third placed in the share of the vote, having lost ground to both UKIP and Labour, who had increased their share of the vote by practically and actually 10% each to the Conservative loss of 4%.

But no one takes European elections seriously do they? Well therein lies the problem, no, on the whole they don’t. European elections tend to have a relatively low turnout, and have been seen in this country more of a de facto opinion poll on the Government of the day. This in itself is part of the problem – we’ve never taken European elections seriously, which has helped in the narrative that the European Parliament is somehow ‘undemocratic’ – because even though we quite clearly have elected representatives in the EU Parliament, could you name yours?

Spooked that European electoral success might translate to UK electoral success, the promise of an ‘in/out’ European Referendum was a key element of bringing haemorrhaging ‘floaters’ back into the bosom of the Conservative Party for the General Election of 2015. And it worked, up to a point.

Although Cameron now had a working majority, it was not exactly a thumping one – a majority of just 12. UKIP won a spectacular zero seats in the House, so by that metric it could be argued that it had been a winning formula.

There was just one remaining problem – having promised a referendum, it was now incumbent upon him to deliver one.

And so he did. And so we are where we are.

Now looms a related inconvenience that hasn’t really been talked about much, but will become very much a thorn in the side of the foot that is in the boot that looks to kick the can just that bit further down the road.

If we are still ‘IN’ in May 2019, having extended/revoked Article 50, are we to elect a new cohort to Brussels?

How do you see those elections going?

Squirrels 🐿

The Tory MEPs (apart from the ones that have been sidelined for not getting behind Brexit post referendum) have already met to discuss standing at the next election. Just in case.

And yes, people voting UKIP pushed Cameron into a referendum… but neither party had a plan on what to do if the referendum returned Leave… so the referendum should not have been called. The Leave voters I know agree on this now… they should have been given the chance to vote for a plan to Leave, not just the wish to. As the current mess makes clear.

… so the referendum should not have been called.

If Cameron had won a significant majority in 2015 it never would have been.

The problem isn’t that the voters got a say in the referendum, but that they were lied to right, left, and centre.

And much as some like to disparage the gammon Brexiteers, that is exactly the gullible politically illiterate sector that the lies were aimed at, and continue to be aimed at.

It highlights the danger to a democracy of allowing foreign owned media getting involved in internal political issues, or having local ownership concentrated in too few hands.

As always, follow the money. Cui bono?

Who stands to benefit by us being out before the deadline of 1st April? It certainly was important enough to them for millions in dark money to be poured into the Leave campaign.

We have been screwed over by experts.

How ironic the Maybot speaks in parliament on this day with a massive chain around her neck.

Corbyn has the same basic issue as May. A split party. Half the front bench have said they will quit if he backs even a second referendum and more than 100 labour mps would vote against it let alone if he shifts to remain where it’s clear that the party would split

Yes, of course he was. This is what I mean. Despite the clear fact that May is the one who has been defeated, some still think Corbyn is the cause of all this chaos. It’s very odd.

You might not have noticed, but the government won the confidence vote tabled by Corbyn. ffs he has failed to lay a glove on the most damaged government in history. I know he can do no wrong in your eyes, It’s very odd.

The trouble is now, the time may have even past to push for a second referendum. IMO we will now end up with softer brexit than May’s deal that still damages the economy and fails to heal the national wounds. Even if labour get in at the next election the damage to the economy will severely limit any actions they can take to make a fairer society.

I supported Corbyn, even beyond the snap election, but I was wrong, he has failed and is just as culpable as May for this mess. He whipped his party to support May.s legislation at several points when he could and should have been offering clear alternatives.

The pretence that he had a plan and needed to bide his time to put it into action is as much a fantasy as jamba and thm’s claim that the tories had a plan that they had to keep close to their chest and the adults were actually in charge. The **** lot of you are just incapable of seeing what is clearly in front of your eyes, you are reading the beano but think it is The Prince.

Yep he should have whipped mp’s to try and rule out no deal etc and votes. BUT and it’s a big one what could he have done apart from that. It’s clear that tories are doing party over country. DUP and collecting the cheque.

The only way of not getting a party line vote here is free votes on both sides. That is a blink first problem too.

But the blame for all of this sits with the tories. It started with them, it’s controlled by them, its being run by them. May’s inability to listen or be open to compromise is killing this country.

Map
What should he have done?

Any movement away from leave he would have 100+ labour mps voting against him and along with the tories

he has failed to lay a glove on the most damaged government in history

Well ignoring for for a second that he managed to unify his divided party and much of the rest of the opposition parties in order to deliver the largest government defeat in history, are you having a go at him for failing to persuade tories to vote against a Tory leader and for the collapse of their own government?

What should he have done?

Made things difficult for the government by backing amendments to their legalisation that could have won over some rebels and stopped us getting to where we are now. The whole “plan” of supporting the government in how it framed Brexit legislation, and then blocking her WA and calling for a General Election when the inevitable shit hit the fan, was, and is, a dud. You can argue whether he pursued it because he wants Brexit and to take over in the aftermath, or that he had no choice because he had to avoid taking a position that might result in no Brexit to keep voters and MPs on side, or that he is a poor politician. Your choice.

We have been screwed over by experts.

No, we’ve been screwed over by politicians. The experts have been heavily in favour of remain the whole time, and people aren’t listening to them. Partly because of anti-expert sentiment…

Imagine that – deliberately going against people who actually know what they are talking about, because they know what they are talking about.

Re Corbyn, May didn’t make it easy for him or anyone in Parliament by not talking about what they were planning. Hard to argue against what hasn’t been said.

Well, whipping Labour MPs to vote to give her the power to trigger A50 without first presenting a plan to parliment and the country was the biggest “mistake” the Labour leadership made.

Made things difficult for the government by backing amendments to their legalisation that could have won over some rebels and stopped us getting to where we are now

Rubbish, wouldn’t have made any difference. There is nothing he could have done to stop the position the government is now in, it is all in their own making.
If Corbyn had declined Labour’s involvement in a cross party group setup 2 years ago to gather requirements from all parties, come up with an agreed solution and then present that to the EU and negotiate on it then yes he would be to blame but non of that happened did it.

You have been had.

When Labour MPs wanted to amend legislation, to temper May’s control over the process, and to prevent a no deal Brexit being a legal default, in a way that some Tory MPs were willing put their name to, Corbyn put a three line whip in place to support her.

Corbyn seems to want to hand the initiative back to May at every opportunity. Putting pre-conditions on talks instantly allows him to be painted as the roadblock to fruitful discussions. He might think that she needs to drop her red lines, but he’s just painted another bloody great one in the way of any hope of progress.

Just seems to be one false step after another.

Well ignoring for for a second that he managed to unify his divided party and much of the rest of the opposition parties in order to deliver the largest government defeat in history,

I really hope you are not serious, parliament united against May’s deal, not for Corbyn. Corbyn was just one of them, he had nothing to do with it other than his singular vote. All Corbyn is doing is squabbling with May over who should be at the wheel when the bus goes over the cliff.

This blind faith in these failed leaders is just making matters worse. As I said earlier, you a just the opposite face of the coin to Jamba and THM.

So what would you have him do?

Martin
The same or less reclines than the lib demo and snp.

So what would you have him do?

There are pages and pages of people saying what they think Corbyn should have done, all through the process in this thread, yet you keep posting this question over and over again. Are you trolling?

At this point, he should probably call for A50 to be delayed, and for a referendum, as his members want. Not ideal, but it has support in his own party and, crucially, in all parties in Parliament except the DUP.

I would rather he pushed to cancel Brexit without a referendum now, the time for consulting with the public has probably passed, but fully understand that no politician will be openly saying that ’till March.

The third option is to push for a softer Brexit… but it’s far too late for that. When he whipped against EEA and against the customs union, he helped kill that off. It can’t really be revived at the final hour. The Labour fantasy “a” customs union, where the UK gets to vetoe EU trade deals with other third countries only deserves a sly smirk. Being outside the Single Market means that most problems wouldn’t be solved by that, even if it was a serious option.

The same or less reclines than the lib demo and snp.

He seems more ‘laid back’ about the urgent need to sit down with the PM and start moving those red lines. She is going to be the PM for some time, he isn’t. She is possibly looking for an excuse to take ‘no deal’ off the table, as neither she nor Hammond want to go there. But a public ultimatum from the Leader of the Opposition forces her to harden her position.

The best look for Corbyn now is as someone prepared to roll up his sleeves and go the extra mile to persuade the government to shift its course, inch by inch, until the only remaining option is extending A50 to renegotiate a softer Brexit. That’s the urgent first step on the route to averting catastrophe.

At this stage we are what, less than 10 weeks from a no deal Brexit. The traditional adversarial nature of the Commons has failed miserably. Putting obstacles in the way of negotiations is a bad look.

I have answered that question before TJ, as have others, you just keep ignoring the answers. You are just trying to obfuscate by continuing to ask a question that has been answered many times.

Why so much focus on Corbyn rather than May. May is PM and leading Brexit- everything that has happened is a result of her/their actions. Is it that everyone assumes May and the Tories are so useless that, although they are the Government, they will only ever **** things up? And the only hope is a saviour from the opposition riding in to save us all?

Unfortunately the opposition is almost as divided as the Tories and any opposition leader would have just as many problems as Corbyn. Less than a third of Labour MPs are open 2nd reffers – so whatever hopes remainers like me have of a 2nd ref revolution are not matched by the numbers in Parliament (yet)

It is basically a Tory created cluster **** that neither of the main parties has the unity to resolve as things stand

Well, whipping Labour MPs to vote to give her the power to trigger A50 without first presenting a plan to parliment and the country was the biggest “mistake” the Labour leadership made.

Agree

I have answered that question before TJ, as have others, you just keep ignoring the answers

He’s not, he (like me) just doesn’t think you’re right. It’s all well and good saying that Corbyn should do this and that for remain, or softening of Brexit, but that ignores the fact that he needs electoral support and he will lose core leave voters if one of the main parties is seen as being remainer focused.

It’s become an impossible situation for both parties. They both had to handle the situation the same way at the outset, not capitulate to popular demand. The time for cross party co-operation was after the ref.

parliament united against May’s deal

I see. So when May is defeated it’s the work of parliament, but when she wins it’s all the fault of Corbyn. What are you going to blame him for next? By the same logic he’s at fault for homelessness and food banks.

the simple fact is that in the enactment of Brexit, he’s on the sidelines as he has no executive power. All he can do is set out the labour position, use whatever parliamentary processes which are at his disposal, and get his party to vote accordingly. He’s done all of those pretty effectively. So what else? Lock himself to the Downing Street railings? Go on hunger strike? Set himself on fire in protest?

Kelvin – a Labour leader can’t push to just cancel Bexit any more that a Tory leader. It’s a **** disaster but there was a referendum and to simply to ignore that now would be political suicide both in Parliament and at the next GE – not withstanding ignoring a national vote however flawed it was.

2nd ref is the only option to stop Brexit and even with Parly support- which there isn’t – it would be tricky to deliver.

To answer my previous question I think that the us remainers are so frustrated we are desperate for someone to miraculously make it all better – but it ain’t gonna happen because there are no easy answers

Ever seen that snotty little kid at the back of the class rubbing his nose in his sleeve, that’s Corbyn right there.

Happy to poke fun at the teacher, whilst sitting behind a desk whilst subsequently knowing that the teacher is wrong yet doing nothing other than wipe snot down his arm.

The only good thing that has come out of all of this fiasco, and that is every position, every move, every decision made or proposed has been open to critics and critical analysis and called out and shown to be that we’re being led by a bunch of self-serving children who’ve yet to grow up in a real world.

Thank God for Hansard I say, and TV, and Social Media, and those people that seek to critically analyse and think rationally about this situation.

In ten years time when the UK has a center based none political agenda that serves the people, will we look back to an era of politics that only has its place in the 17th Century.

And wonder “WTF” happened back then, and laugh out loud.

That Corbyn has helped to facilitae Brexit at every turn is glaringly self- evident – going AWOL during the referendum, the call to trigger article 50 the morning after the referendum, a three line whips to trigger article 50, the same to leave the customs union and single market. Thgats his record at every important Brexit juncture. Thats Iain Duncan Smith territory

I don’t think you can be in much doubt now as to where Corbyn thinks this is going. He knows we’re headed for a hard brexit (which he’s helpfully enabling). He knows it will be an economic catastophe. But he then thinks that a nation going down in flames will lay the blame entirely at the door of the Tory’s, and turn to his version of labour. A grateful nation throws off its capitalist chains and eagerly embraces socialialism, where he is the Mao-esque messiah at the helm. Handily free of the shackles of Europe. This is what he sees. He wants Year Zero. The cost will be immense, but it’ll be worth it, and he will be thanked for his vision as a reborn socialist utopia rises from the ashes

Its difficult to know where to start about just how deluded this is. But its clearly what he believes will now happen. He’s as reckless, self-serving and deluded as the most hardline right winger envisaging a Singapore off the shores of Europe. He’s a fraud, a charlatan and a fool! More importantly, he’s the hardest of hardline Brexiteers!

Some of us have been able to see this for years. But the people who carry on apoligising for him… you’re utterly delusional. Its like you’ve joined some Waco style cult and been completely brainwashed. Well your emporer has no clothes. He’s been wandering around butt naked in front of you for 3 years now, yet you’re still complimenting the quality of his tailoring.

It’d be funny if the consequences of this stupidity weren’t so potentially catastrophic for all of us. He’s backed May and the Tory party at every critical turn, and he’s done it willingly

There will be no socialist revolution. This is a right wnig coup! This is a catastrophe which will reek havoc on all of us. The blame, as the country burns, will be spread around the political class. If Corbyn thinks people are so stupid as to not hold him culpable, he’s living on another planet. But then he exists in an echo chamber and listens to no-one

Wake up FFS!!!

Why so much focus on Corbyn rather than May.

Because May has clearly failed, and the tory government has been failing for 2 years+, so we want an alternative, a real alternative not just different colored unicorns, so we look to the opposition, the party I would usually support and vote for to provide some hope and all we get is a void.

I am a left wing libreal snowflake, the tories are doing what I expect them to, putting themselves, greed and power before the nation. That isn’t what I expect or want from labour, they need to provide something for us to unite behind. Because I have no hope that May or any other sniveling frontbench torie **** will do what is right for the country, I look to labour for that hope, to lead us out of the mess that the tories have made, but they show no inclination to do so.

Hang on. We were told that Labour would only bring forward a Vote of No Confidence when they knew that were going to win it.

Aye, I’m glad he kept his powder dry, choosing his moment for maximum impact…..