And for the record, like MSP, I’m a lifelong Guardian-reading, liberal leftie who has voted Labour at every single election in my adult life, but I look at Corbyns labour party in total and utter despair

I’m far from alone in this

Why so much focus on Corbyn rather than May.

Nothing can get through Parliament without the leader of one of the main two parties supporting it. It may well be that May or her successor offer a way out of this, but, given how pro Brexit her party members and voters are, we are not expecting it. Labour members and voters want something different from the Leader of the party that they voted for. Although, I have to admit, my last vote for a Labour parliamentary candidate will probably be my last, unless someting changes.

https://metro.co.uk/2019/01/17/past-top-brexiteers-comes-back-haunt-massive-billboards-8354027/amp/

Ok I get it – we are all hugely disappointed with Brexit and feel disenfranchised because no-one is really representing our views.

But I think the relentless focus on Corbyn lets May and the Tories off the hook.

Why so much focus on Corbyn rather than May.

Because Corbyn now has the balance of power in Parliamentary terms. He, and only he, can whip enough MPs to get a version of Brexit through the Commons.

The ERG Tory loons will vote against any softer Brexit deal, but that doesn’t matter if a significant number of Labour MPs fall in behind it.

I personally, would love to see the whole thing get called off, but realistically I think the best we can hope for is a much softer Brexit deal engineered cross-party, perhaps eventually put to the public via a two-option ref. This deal or remain.

If he is obstructing this process by immediately throwing up hard barriers to talks, then you have to wonder what that posture is designed to achieve except to prolong stalemate.

Labour members and voters want something different from the Leader of the party that they voted for

Members maybe (well most of them) but voters is rather more complex. The heartlands risk being wiped out if Labour come out hard against. You dont think the tories will be grateful for being saved and not take advantage and then go hard right do you?

But I think the relentless focus on Corbyn lets May and the Tories off the hook.

Thats the idea of course. Why the right wing media keep it up and fortunately for them they have a bunch of useful idiots in the form of the “moderates” who have such a deep hatred of anything other than their version of left wing politics that they dedicate themselves to attacking Corbyn and co whilst letting the ERG and its playmates get away with it.

Binners, Northwind etc I think our politics are much more similar than different – my frustrations about Brexit are just as big as yours, but I think the ire should be focused on those that are caused and continue to **** up.

but I think the ire should be focused on those that are caused and continue to **** up.

Frustration with Corbyn and anger at what the Tories have done are not mutually-exclusive positions. It is undeniable that this is the worst, most incompetent, self-serving, mercenary and weak Conservative government in modern history. But now that Corbyn has some Parliamentary clout, it is important he doesn’t squander it via grandstanding.

We can go back to talking about this shitshow of a government tomorrow – today is about what Corbyn needs to do in the public interest.

I haven’t read every post but I have seen no answers to that question that gives any specifics within a day of asking it.

What should he have done?

Any movement away from leave he would have 100+ labour mps voting against him and along with the tories

So in order to avoid a limited number of labour MPs rebelling and voting with the Tories he whipped the whole party to do the same.

There are Tory moderates crying out for support enough to overturn the legislation that was introduced.

He should have opposed the triggering of A50 without a thorough risk identification and mitigation plan being undertaken so it was clear what needed to be done and the timescales and costs associated with that. He should have opposed no deal being the default position so we can’t have a time bomb strapped to us on negotiations. He should have been setting out alternative red lines to provide his “jobs 1st Brexit” and using that to point out why the government proposals are damaging to the labour heartlands. And finally when it got to the meaningful vote he could criticise the government’s plans from a position of meaningful differentiation. Watching labour try to claim credit for the defeat of Theresa Mays plan across social media is embarrassing.

But he did none of that so nothing he does is particularly meaningful because he’s left himself holding a bust hand against someone holding a pair of 2s. So instead people who should support labour are driven to frustration because through either gross incompetence or tacit cooperation with the Tories they are left watching labour prop up a defunct government against the wishes of the majority of their members, removing any differentiation that they may want to take to a GE that they aren’t in a position to trigger.

And given he’s either incompetent or a Tory enabler he really should stand down and let someone else lead.

Members maybe (well most of them) but voters is rather more complex. The heartlands risk being wiped out if Labour come out hard against.

This is a two way street. If Labour had opposed Brexit, as it should have done, how many non-gammon Tory voters out there would switch to Labour? Most Tory’s, in fact, most voters, aren’t hard-right anti-EU fundamentalists – as a certain Mr T Blair recognised. I’d say there are vast swathes of previous Tory voters out there who are as despairing as anyone else about Brexit, which politically is the only game in town right now. How many marginal seats would be in the bag if we had a labour party that laid out a vision of a future for the UK in the EU?

Corbyn had no interest in doing this. Never did. Never will. Because he’s a Brexiteer

At this point, he should probably call for A50 to be delayed, and for a referendum, as his members want.

And what would that actually achieve, May would just reject it. He is not in power so can do nothing – which is exactly why he is continue to harp on about an election.

Because he’s a Brexiteer

Yawn.

This is a two way street. If Labour had opposed Brexit, as it should have done, how many non-gammon Tory voters out there would switch to Labour?

Less non brexit Tories would switch to Labour than brexiter Labour voters would switch to Tory. Not a two way street at all.

If Corbyn listened to the advise many of you are putting forward he would have 50 less seats come another election but at least the Labour party would go down on a good principal eh…

I give up. He won’t do anything to stop Brexit, or let the public choose if they want to stop Brexit, because he wants a general election so that he can be PM and carry out Brexit … but he’s not pro Brexit. All clear. At least he’ll keep your vote @Kerley & @tjagain… but I’m done with him.

Corbyn does not hold a balance of power or indeed any power
Molgrips it’s not I disagree it’s that no-one has answered it with anything specific or possible

If he comes out in favour of another ref then half his frontbench quits and half his party votes against

With that I will take another break from this. Every one is shouting. No one is listening and too many believe the right-wing propaganda including labour mps

His refusal to engage in talks with the government (that now appear to be desperately looking for a way through this mess) is just more of what he’s done his entire ‘career’. Its puerile, juevenile, and momre importantly – totally ineffective – placard waving! It will achieve nothing! Change nothing! But to the hard-of-thiking 6th formers it looks like he’s ‘sticking it to the man, yeah?’

I despair!

but at least the Labour party would go down on a good principal eh

I think that is part of what the “moderates” hope for. If Labour saved the tories and got wiped out as a result they could then drag the party back rightwards. Best to skip over last time that happened we ended up with all the people feeling abandoned and voting for a change whatever that ends up being.

Binners – I’m not exactly happy with that move either.

I think that is part of what the “moderates” hope for.

This meme that people who don’t want Brexit (Tory policy) are helping the Tories by saying so, is getting old.

Corbyn does not hold a balance of power or indeed any power

Really? So May can get any version of her deal through without Labour?

There are effectively three major parties at Westminster when it comes to Brexit negotiations. May’s Tories, the ERG Tories, and Labour.

It’s true that Corbyn should recognise that he doesn’t have any power to remove the government – that should be patently obvious by now. He isn’t getting his election any time soon.

But he has the potential for significant influence over Brexit negotiations for the practical reason that the ERG will vote down pretty much everything. The only way to get a deal through the Commons is via cross-party negotiation.

If he comes out in favour of another ref then half his frontbench quits and half his party votes against

Over 70% of the party support a second ref, thankfully he democratised the party and is listening to them….

Which of his front bench have stated they will quit if he supports a second ref?

is for the hard of thinking only.

Lucky people aint saying that then isnt it?
Rather inanely regurgitating the latest right wing attack memes on Corbyn and co helps the maybot and co get off the hook.

He should have opposed the triggering of A50 without a thorough risk identification and mitigation plan being undertaken so it was clear what needed to be done and the timescales and costs associated with that.

Unfortunately he was there calling for Article 50 to be triggered the day of the Referendum result…

Which of his front bench have stated they will quit if he supports a second ref?

Perhaps he could get back some of his front benchers that he sacked for supporting a referendum.

Rather inanely regurgitating the latest right wing attack memes

Do the right wing attack memes include calling for A50 to be extended or revoked? Or calling for a referendum on whether we still want to press on with Brexit?

It’s true that Corbyn should recognise that he doesn’t have any power to remove the government – that should be patently obvious by now. He isn’t getting his election any time soon.

Tom Watson was on Newsnight last night saying, they said they try, and they’ve tried. They haven’t decided what they are doing next (apart from putting down more red lines).

If Labour had opposed Brexit, as it should have done, how many non-gammon Tory voters out there would switch to Labour?

With Corbyn in charge, very few. Because thanks to rhetoric like yours binners, they all think he’s a rabid commie (which is far from true) and/or ineffectual.

You oversimplify politics greatly. He’s boxed in, that’s the reality, so I really think there’s not a lot he can do. Maybe a truly great statesman could find a way out, but they’re in short supply recently.

His refusal to engage in talks with the government

Whilst you have been engaging in a nice primary school activity of finding some photos did you happen to notice the SNP have also decided it isnt worth talking with the Maybot now since its clear any discussion is a waste of time until she shows signs of actually being able to compromise?

Surely at some point very soon they need a Commons vote with two choices; postpone a50 (for a minimum of 1 year) or exit with no deal. There’s no chance any sort of exit deal with get voted through now so all the current BS that just keeps us bumbling along is pointless.

Assuming the postpone a50 vote passes then, if no new deal emerges that gets passed then it’s followed by another vote after 1 year which two choices; Leave with no deal or hold a 2nd referendum (referendum options are either Leave with no deal or Remain, as by then we’ll know our government is incapable of negotiating an exit deal which has Commons support)

You oversimplify politics greatly.

It’s simple. Corbyn wants Brexit. Lot of other complications abound, but on this one topic, it’s simple really. Now, can he ever put that to one side and allow the party to democratically set policy in this area? It doesn’t look like it.

85% of Labour party membership favour value 2nd ref. PLP is far less minded this way

Actually now I’ve calmed down a bit (I’m not normally an argumentative person – another reason to dislike Brexit) I think the nexts few weeks will make or break Corbyn. If he **** up the opportunity that the anti-May deal vote presented the party membership will not forgive him. No matter what people think about Corbyn’s principles – what worries me is that he seems to be have a naivety about how the political game works

To be fair to Corbs he has refused to discuss with TM until she rules out a no-deal.
Either he’s saying that cos he’s aware of what damage it’ll do, or he’s saying it so he can run the clock down so that we leave with no-deal…

to notice the SNP have also decided it isnt worth talking with the Maybot now since its clear any discussion is a waste of time until she shows signs of actually being able to compromise?

Though it could be argued that deciding that on the basis of a meeting as opposed to an ultimatum at least makes it look like they were prepared to try. If Labour engage with discussions, then come out and say TM is intransigent, then the pressure is back on her.

Another argument is that Theresa May doesn’t particularly need the SNP. They, like the LibDems, are a minor party. Any power/influence lies with Jeremy Corbyn, but if he continues to exercise it in a confrontational way – no-confidence votes, ultimatums – then it plays into the hands of those who want obstruction and delay to tip us into no-deal. Whether or not JC is one of those, I wouldn’t like to judge.

Those led by donkeys people are brilliant.
There’s been too many seminars and not enough action.

If I may intrude into the discussion about the uselessness of, on the one side Tweedledee and on the other, Tweedledum…

I’ve lately noticed an outstanding political interviewer in amongst all the flack.

Step forward Adam Boulton, formerly “That fat chap always outside number ten” (business genius Alan Sugar).

His “All Out Politics” on Sky is well worth a look.

Unlike the typical BBC method which always seems to descend into a shouty match of ‘who’s got the loudest interruption’, he seems to just elide his questions quietly into the gaps of his interviewees’ responses and thereby getting them to answer his questions rather than just encouraging more stonewalling.

Softly softly catchee monkey.

Runner up – Tony Robinson.

OK. Carry on.

Corbyn May Corbyn May Corbym May Corbyn May Corbyn May

no one want’s to blink first on FOM, the Maybot would break the deadlock with the labour party onside and they will help her vote through Norway++ with the ERG left out in the cold, but she needs to shift the blame for FOM onto labour, come the next ge all the immigrants are labours fault.

did you happen to notice the SNP have also decided it isnt worth talking with the Maybot now

That was only an hour ago, wasn’t it? And she is insisting that a referendum and change of exit date is put “back in the table” as well, as did Cable. Lucas is over there now, presumably making the same point.

Corbyn is making a speech at 11. I expect it’ll be as worthwhile as Mays last night. I’m sure he’ll just reiterate his position and keep painting himself further into that corner. Utterly pointless.

The one thing I do hope for, in the absense of any worthwhile content, is that he tones down the shoutyness level. Its really starting to grate.

Looks like Gove has been sent out to by-pass the labour ‘leadership’ and have a chat with the MP’s.