[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Can I get a postal?
In, much prefer the free travel, work and collective achievement. Ultimately an in vote should be an all in and work to make it work rather than sniping from the back row pretending to be clever. The future will have less borders not more.

In of course don't be silly

I should have also added - I too like the 'we can travel more, we share more' approach to life...

I'm in agreement with you. I can't help thinking that trade opportunity etc needs us to remain in the EU, but at the same time am in depair about the kind of stuff that happens daily, such as us now potentially having to pay financial sanctions to the EU for holding Assange, which has already cost the taxpayer millions.

For all those things krypton there were simpler solutions...

In, because if we leave I'm not sure I'll have a job. Simple self interest.

......shake it all about

I will vote to stay in Europe. Advantages bigger than drawbacks.

I'm in but it needs serious reforms.

As a free trade zone, the EU is brilliant, and we [u]have[/u] to be part of it.
However, for everything else - it is loosing its way, and bloating into a united states of Europe.

For all those things krypton there were simpler solutions

Well maybe. But seeing as I have a quirky level of intelligence and am unable to understand politics as a result. I need a "good" / "bad" factual list to actually decide hence I am on the fence.

I've come to the conclusion I'll never get one of those, and although there are things I know I like and don't like I'll be an abstainer due to the fact I can't pin it down to one or the other.

I don't feel I know enough about it. What are the advantages and what are the disadvantages?

My reasoning for leaving would be that the government generally want us to stay in the EU and generally what they want is something for themselves. Does it aid the needs of our country staying in?

My reason for staying is that Farage and UKIP want to leave and I like to disagree with everything they say do or believe in!

In, as I've never heard a convincing reason to leave.

I think the problem with in/out is it may not solve the real issues.

I don't want to be in a unified Europe. I don't see a EU working unless it has one legal and one tax system, and given its diversity that seems very unlikely to work (Greece, for example)

I don't like trade barriers either.

So, Yes to a common market, but No to more integration.

But seeing as I have a quirky level of intelligence and am unable to understand politics as a result. I need a "good" / "bad" factual list to actually decide hence I am on the fence.

In for me.
Aside from the trade & movement benefits, the idea of more local decisions scares me when I see the ineptitude of our party politics particularly when it comes to long term planning / strategy, and how that also impacts on things like worker rights, internet "regulation" among other things.

Reforms are no doubt needed but that is the case for any & all organisations. Unfortunately, the benefits I see, also have drawbacks which makes change harder.

In. Much of what comes out of Europe will still affect us, so it's better that we have a say in it and try to reform from the inside than sitting on the outside with no ability to really ignore it.

I agree completely with freeagent and as the saying goes it easier to be on the train pi55ing out onto the platform than running alongside trying to pi55 in.

I'll vote for "out".

Europe is in the midst of the worst crisis for 70 years and its leaders have clearly still not recognised the need for change.

Having to rely on leaders of countries that are smaller than the population of London for permission to effectively manage migration to our own country is ridiculous, as is the failure of policy makers in Europe to deal decisively with the economic malaise that many countries still find themselves in.

Switzerland has more reciprocal free trade agreements than the EU, and a majority of Britain's trade is outside the EU now. Europe must reform and reform quickly but sees no need to. It's better to be on the outside and focus on maintain trading than inside a movement which is clearly focussed on increasing fiscal, monetary and political union as a goal in its own right.

Two issues are overhyped:

1. Britons still have to show passports when travelling to Europe - "free movement" is not there for us anyway.

2. The german and french economies will still need to sell cars etc. to us. It's as much in their interests for trade to be maintained as it is for ours - and countries already outside the EU have little difficulty trading with it.

Abstaining until the proper vote.

This CMD stuff is just a rather silly sideshow.

There is only one question or not - do you want to be part of a Europe that involves full monetary, fiscal and political union - Yes or No

To survive, this is where it needs to go unless the silly € project is abandoned - then you could simply go back to the very sensible four core pillars as originally intended.

Fair point Mike but those instructions are diluted / painted in a certain light by politicians. If you can't wade through that and don't have the time or inclination to do the base research yourself, you can't make an informed decision.

Vis a vis I was until last night firmly on the "immigrants use britians taxpayer money to fund better lifestyles" side of the fence. Then I watched a documentary of four blokes living in squalor in a uk city over a period of four years waiting for clearance to legally work in the uk. That mixed with film of thier war torn home towns, home lifestyle and dead family members made me feel as though I was an unforgiving arsehole. Or, is the program comissioned propaganda? *tin foil hat*

My current view is to play the hand I have, and live as comfortably and appropriately for my family as I can within the four walls within which control is biased toward my own capability and prejudices.

In

In.

As it currently exists, and the direction it seems to be drifting, a reluctant "Out".

If it was returned to being a free trade/travel/work area, if it's legislative powers were reduced, if it ever produced a set of accounts that were audited and signed off, then a definite" In".

I'm rather on the fence over what DC thinks he has achieved for us.

It's a staying in for me. Sure it costs a bit of money in membership fees, but amoungst other things, I like the way some areas of the UK gets a chunk of that money back that they would never normally get to see to pay for things they would never normally get to have. Although I believe that arrangement is under threat and that the government wants the returned money to go into central funds.

In.

Tories.

Workers rights.

'nuff said

Out. Most definitely out. As the birthplace of common law and parliamentary democracy, I'm sure we are able to govern ourselves quite adequately. I hate the tories more than anyone, but there are elements that I agree with them on with regards Europe. I feel disgusting just saying it...

Out

What are the advantages and what are the disadvantages?

Is a very good point - there is a very real need for some sober analysis. I fear, however, that the EU referendum debate will make the Scottish referendum debate seem well-informed - which would be a massive achievement by any standards.

QT was generally awful on the Beeb last night apart from the Lib/Dem and Labour ladies. Worse is to come, no doubt....

In, but trending out.
For what I imagine is one of the most important decisions we need to make in a long time there is very little easily digestible information readily available- both campaigns are highly emotive but short on information.

As several of the others alluded, if you're in, it should really be boots'n'all, otherwise I can't really see the benefits over trade agreements. The EU is a completely different organisation to the 1970's Common Market, and markets nowadays are far less protectionist/isolationist.

julians - Member

Out

For a moment, I read "out" and "oui" which would have been tres amusant

I am generally on the fence

However when I look at those most vocal in wanting to leave it does not make me want to join their cause.

if it ever produced a set of accounts that were audited and signed off

God not this again

It has complicated rules, they are signed off, most of the "fraud" * is done by member states not the EU and take a look at the MOD if you want to see accounts not signed off

TBH the debate is largely framed in false tabloid tropes that have been repeated so often folk actually believe them.

https://fullfact.org/economy/did-auditors-sign-eu-budget/

https://fullfact.org/europe/has-eu-budget-been-rejected-auditors-past-18-years/

* the majority is misapplication of the rules rather than genuine attempt at fraud

EDIT: tp be clear there is plenty of ammunition there to criticise the EU budget but that never signed off claim is just factually not true and said to make it appear worse than it really is. FFS its the auditors who tell us this and yet dolk say unaudited...how would we know anything if they were unaudited?

Out

On a scale of 1 to 10. (out=1, in=10) I think i'm a 7.

I reckon the benefits outweigh the problems and most of the "out" people generally seem to have pretty poor arguments, based on mis-information, racism, or things that won't actually be solved by leaving the EU.

Take a look at the people who are so vehemently against the EU. Do they look like a sane, rational bunch, who you'd like to find yourself broadly in agreement with?

Is a very good point - there is a very real need for some sober analysis. I fear, however, that the EU referendum debate will make the Scottish referendum debate seem well-informed - which would be a massive achievement by any standards.

Indeed. I suspect we're in for a hysterical deluge of straight banana regulations stories, the European Court of Human Rights giving terrorists 3 votes each at elections, and the EU forcing us to take the entire population of Syria and give them all a house. And a kitten.

I'm not sure which way to vote.
I'd like to see some actual FACTS about the advantages and disadvantages but all I can seem to find is propaganda from one side or the other.
Generally I think it's probably a good thing though; but in need of some reforms.

Almost certainly in, but I am sympathetic with what MoreCashThanDash has to say, above.

PeterPoddy - Member

I'm not sure which way to vote.
I'd like to see some actual FACTS about the advantages and disadvantages but all I can seem to find is propaganda from one side or the other.
Generally I think it's probably a good thing though; but in need of some reforms.

Agree with that but the rub is, will we ever get the reforms?

Hence I'm leaning slightly towards out at the moment.

The OUT campaign seems mainly to be '[b]They[/b]' are making rules for 'Us' and '[b]We[/b]' want control back.

It seems fair until you ask who '[b]They[/b]' are and who '[b]We[/b]' are.

[b]We [/b]are British and [b]They [/b]are not - actually I am English but get rules and controls forced on me for the benefit of the whole of Britain.

Okay, [b]We [/b]are English and [b]They [/b]are not - Actually I am from Hampshire but get rules and controls forced on me for the benefit of the whole of England.

Okay, [b]We [/b]are Hampshire and [b]They [/b]are not - Actually I am from Southampton but get rules and controls forced on me for the benefit of the whole of Hampshire.

Okay, [b]We [/b]are Southampton...

I guess the logical end result is that we all live as individuals with no cooperation and no joined up rules, collective responsibility etc. I guess that is why the Out campaign tends to be favored by those who have least to gain by sharing with others and most to gain by exploiting their relative strength over others.

I am sure there is a reverse argument that will pop up shortly but for the moment I am in.

It is an interesting one- We only really hear about the negatives of EU membership, promoted due to the right wing press. The headlines to do with Brussels are always sensationalist, such as a cracking headline from the Sun a few years back, about the EU wanting to band busty barmaids.

My dissertation was on 'Europeanisation' of Britain's laws and policies, and in the vast majority of cases our laws and policies are in line with and in many cases ahead of Brussels. The idea the the EU controls every aspect of our lives and meddles in everything is a complete fallacy. The idea of many EU laws are standardisation between states, so we can afford the same protections in whatever state we wish to travel to.
But, that is not to say some laws are bonkers- look at fisheries for example.

It is better to be in than out. Plain and simple.

http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/

In.

The financial figures of what we will get hit with to leave are very, very, very scary.
The rules side is a hiccup in comparison 😯
I agree that it should either be one massive single system or leave states alone rules wise.
But getting out is not an option anyone can afford.

Skeptic, but remain in.

Can I have a bit of both please?
I can see benefits for business so that seems to point for in but I see the international dictation of laws and regulations as disgusting.
I suppose I feel that the Common market was OK but bitterly resent the fact that someone else tells us how to spend our money.

Out. I'm going to sound a little like Nige, which is worrying, but net immigration of 300000+ per year damages our ability to run and manage our own economy. It places downwards pressure on wages, and upwards pressure on housing needs and therefore prices. The free movement of people is damaging to both our economy and the economies of the rest of Europe.

I don't for a moment believe that an Out vote in this referendum will result in us leaving the EU, but it will result in a stronger negotiating position and force a change in direction from the EU.

Following on from some one above I also strongly believe that local government is best.
Parish councils should be able to veto district, district should veto county etc.
However I am honest. I care sod all for Albania or where ever if its at my own expense.

"Things like privacy and data protection that eu law gives the UK is a good thing. "
We can still do that if we wish. Indeed any supposed social issue can still be chosen if we wish but we don't need to be told what to do.

I found the report r4 did on Norway revealing, the infamous fax machine and the cost for them to deal with the EU, 7th largest contributor and no sway/vote/influence on how it's run and they still have to implement a lot of the directives... That'll go down like a lead balloon with the kippers if that's the result.

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06wj1bt ]Here[/url]

I don't for a moment believe that an Out vote in this referendum will result in us leaving the EU, but it will result in a stronger negotiating position and force a change in direction from the EU.

Why do you think any of this?

You sound like Nigel at the end of a lock in 😉

I was a strong in now undecided because of the way the EU has treated Greece.

I fear, however, that the EU referendum debate will make the Scottish referendum debate seem well-informed

In for me.

I'm not sure which way to vote.
I'd like to see some actual FACTS about the advantages and disadvantages but all I can seem to find is propaganda from one side or the other.

This sums it up for me although I am tending towards "Out".

In.

Everyone contemplating voting out, you are thinking about putting me out of business. Thanks.

In,

I work as a construction consultant. The number of construction regeneration projects that have come about thanks to EU funding regenerating areas of the country that our own government cant be bothered with is staggering and the benefit that they bring to these local communities is immeasurable.

leaving would be a financial disaster for the UK; particularly the areas that aren't in the SE where the gov. seem to think the UK stops.

the EU is not without its problems, but what in life is perfect? the proposals they put in place are at least considered for the 'greater good'

In

This is all of course basing the vote on things within the EU as they stand, by the time the vote takes place (June?). And given whats happening at the moment, thats one hell of an assumption.

The EU leaders don't want to admit it, but the whole freedom of movement principle, which the whole EU thing is based on, is teetering on the verge of collapse. Under pressure from the greatest movement of people since the second world war. Estimates are that over a million more refugees are going to arrive on europes shores this year. Hows the EUn going to cope with that. Not very well, if present chaos is anything to go by.

And if the borders close, which is looking increasingly likely, then Greece will immediately become what is essentially a huge bankrupt refugee camp, who's economy will then completely collapse. And what chain reaction will that cause in the still ridiculously fragile Euro? It certainly isn't going to be pretty. It could potentially be absolutely catastrophic, and as a worst case scenario, cause the messy end of the whole Shengin EU project.

In which case, this is all academic

The financial figures of what we will get hit with to leave are very, very, very scary

Go on , scare me then! 🙂

Seriously, can you expand please as wish to learn more

.

Junkyard - lazarus
.

+1 🙂

I think they lost me here;
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/23/uk-european-commission-eu-budget-contribution

Eurostat arrived at the €2.1bn figure on the basis of new methods of calculating member states’ GNI since 1995, taking account of previously unreported or under-reported black economy elements, such as drug dealing and consumption or the sex industry.

Actually Gordimhor +1

I'm all for more integration tbh, if its done right! And yes that means I'm happy to see "sovereignty" given away.

For all its faults, I'm not seeing the alternatives as being really any better.

[quote=piemonster ]Junkyard - lazarus
.
+1

Truthfully I posted on here a comment for another thread 😳

The way I like to look at the in vs. out debate is to think purely about politicians.

If you think the [i]majority[/i] of them work hard for the voting public, never let their personal interests get in the way of duty and don’t let dogma get in the way of pragmatic reasoned debate and the interests of the country then fine.

If, on the other hand, you think there are many and various interests which divert politicians from their duties, chief among which being cronyism and the lure of big business, banking and big politics, then why would you want to support (through your taxes) more layers of politicians rather than fewer?

Don’t forget that a lot of the pro-EU lot are singing for their own post-UK political suppers, as the likes of Mandelson, Kinnock, Baroness Ashton etc. etc. know; the EU (as well, for that matter as the IMF) is a nice gravy train to hop onto, once you have finished achieving great things in British politics.

British politics doesn't have a gravy train?

Out. I'm going to sound a little like Nige, which is worrying

True

, but net immigration of 300000+ per year damages our ability to run and manage our own economy. It places downwards pressure on wages, and upwards pressure on housing needs and therefore prices.

False

The free movement of people is damaging to both our economy and the economies of the rest of Europe.

False ^2

I don't for a moment believe that an Out vote in this referendum will result in us leaving the EU, but it will result in a stronger negotiating position and force a change in direction from the EU.

Possibly true

Imagine the vengeance the English populace would have wanted doled out on those pesky Scots if they had left.
Europe would do that to us. Finances wouldn't enter into it, Brit bashing would be a vote winner for any euro politician.

Imagine the vengeance the English populace would have wanted doled out on those pesky Scots if they had left.

No, they would have been smiling quietly as Salmond prepared his March 2016 budget - imagine that, all the hot air gone and the cold hard face of reality and truth

Europe would do that to us. Finances wouldn't enter into it, Brit bashing would be a vote winner for any euro politician

Right up until voters saw less money in their pocket through harming a major trading partner. Money talks, the BS would have to walk.

I vote out because didnt Dave say he'd stand down if the 'outs' won the referendum?

I say this as someone who voted him in , in the last GE.

Out

If it were just a common market, In.

My uncle used to work for the nascent EU in the late 70's, staggeringly large organization even then. This is an organization that cant even agree to have the government building in one place all year round, struggles to persuade all members to use the same currency and will force member states to keep repeating votes until there way is accepted.

piemonster - Member

British politics doesn't have a gravy train?

I don't understand why that means you would want to fund yet another? What logic are you arguing here?

I don't think anyone can know the implications either way of in or out and that includes politicians, economists etc. It's all just speculation about what might or might not occur in the future. No-one can predict how the World will develop in future and all the issues which may arise.

I also believe that politicians are a bunch of pathalogical liars and that even an "out" vote won't result in us actually leaving the EU. There's just too much vested interest that couldn't possibly allow that to happen.

I think in or out of the EU there will be issues for Britain going forwards, some pros some cons either way. It's a bit of a non-issue as far as I am concerned. I do think if we are in we might as well go the whole hog and embrace the euro etc. I'm getting fed up exchanging currency every time I go to Europe!

No, they would have been smiling quietly as Salmond prepared his March 2016 budget - imagine that, all the hot air gone and the cold hard face of reality and truth

[i]Part of me thinks more local decisions and less centralised is a Good Thing[/i]

I think you'll find that we will be governed from London, in or out...

So 'In', status quo.

In of course.

Where do you think old people with spare time, get the money from to get access and build paths and trails for walkers, mountain bikers and horses. Even then they can't spend it fast enough!

Trail Addiction and the like would probably NOT exist otherwise. All those resorts must get development money. Even Scottish ski centres get development funding from europe.

Out.

If it was just a common market in, but it's not so I'm out. No idea about the consequences of a successful out vote but I'm prepared to find out.

So IF the the result was to come out of the EU, how long is the process of leaving?

Months, weeks, years, a decade?

I'm undecided. I'm totally against a United States of Europe and think we've probably already gone too far towards that. I also hate the corruption going on in Europe and the European parliment - I can't believe after so much Politician Bashing on this forum and amongst the general pupulous after the expenses and other scandals, that so many want to give their endorsement to the European Political rabble who make ours look like Mother Teresa. Also at every possible opportunity on the global stage the EU has proven itself to be a weak, incompetent and pathetic institution incapable of making any quick and decisive decisions. We also need to rescue our sovereignty and control of our boarders.

However the cons against the OUT side are that the rest of the world are making aliances and if we leave then we're at risk of being left out in the cold as the rest of the world buddies up and starts to protect their own alliances and territories. If we vote OUT i think we'll proably initially thrive, but after 10 years or so will start to fall behind. Also no point in being out and being in a similar situation as Norway - that would be a disaster and very harmful for us.

It's a tricky one and I think we're probably screwed either way. If we vote in then we've effectively given the EU lisence ot ride rough shot over us as they'll see our IN vote as an endorsement. If we vote out then when it eventually goes pear shaped for us (and it will at some point) then we'll have to go back to the EU cap in hand and we will receive no warm welcome and will be screwed over by them givng the EU the opportunity they've wanted for centuries.