[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

all Labour has to do is sit back and watch the tories implode.

This attitude is completely defensible. IF you are solely concerned with Westminster politics and who is up and who is down, and don't give a shit about what happens to the country in the meantime.

Personally, I don't subscribe to that point of view and will find it very hard to forgive any of the Labour politicians currently involved in this farce.

Thanks to Aracer I have the killfile back so ignoring him is easy.

is that the Greasemonkey script ?

Personally, I don’t subscribe to that point of view and will find it very hard to forgive any of the Labour politicians currently involved in this farce.

Indeed. If the economic forecasts are to be believed - and I can't see any reason to doubt them - then its labours heartlands that are going to get clobbered the hardest by Brexit.

I don't think that when that all comes home to roost that 'well you voted for it' is going to wash. They have a duty to represent the interests of their constituents, and those interests sure the hell aren't being served by the present course. Unless the labour party changes its feeble 'constructive ambiguity' tack, and actually grows a pair, then they'll be rightfully tarred with the same brush as the Tory's for the incoming shitstorm as they're essentially complicit

Andrew Rawnsley summed the present situation of Brexit fuelled political impotence and inertia perfectly in the Guardian the other day

We have a government that can't govern and an opposition that doesn't want to oppose

Well worth a read - Since this government can’t govern, parliament must take charge of Brexit

klunk - no its something else that only works on chrome - link in the forum upgrade thread around page 29 IIRC

Point taken chaps BTW

Binners, the alternative viewpoint would be that Jezza and the Marxists interest is in us being outside of A1P1 of ECHR, as that is necessary for them to nationalise without compensation.

I would wager my bets on that being popular enough in the heartlands to offset the damage caused by their position on Brexit

im fact, a ‘worst case scenario’ Brexit plays perfectly for them, as it creates the conditions that would justify widespread renationalisation

Yey! Slash and burn… and rebuild based on pure but flawed long standing left/right ideology!

Should I be embracing the opportunities of disaster capitalism, or looking forward to the return of a nationalised car industry?

[ note, I don't believe for a second that those leading either party really want either of this things - as for national ownership and/or subsidy - keep your eyes on the much needed USA:UK trade deal - it'll be far more restrictive than anything the EU has - most EU countries have more state ownership of infrastructure provision than we do for example ]

Well, we tried a third way but you all hated Tony

that is necessary for them to nationalise without compensation.

Is that on the cards?  Confiscating assets?  Did I miss that?

Anyway.  Brexit is seen as a Tory thing IMO, regardless.

....mistakenly

It was Cameron's idea no?

No he campaigned to remain

As did May

He called the referendum.  If it weren't for eurosceptic Tories we'd be in still.

I think you mean if it wasnt for the majority of voters who voted leave, we'd still be in

[daves big idea (sic) was that he could reform the EU ]

A useful twitter thread on how the UK formed and reformed the EU in recent history…

https://twitter.com/emporersnewc/status/884474494512975872

Tony was not the third way it was Maggie's way just greed wrapped in the red flag. The third way is post may and post corbyn. It's probably 20 years from now.

The Tories have @130k members approx

13.6m voted for Tories in GE

17.4m voted Leave

you have to find your villains outside the Tories

Has everyone forgotten about Farage? Either he's your man, or more realistically he was the figurehead for the majority of the British population that wanted out of the EU.

Definitely nothing to do with the big two parties. They wanted in.

you have to find your villains outside the Tories<

Murdoch

Dacre

Farage

<span style="color: #444444; font-size: 12px;">then its labours heartlands that are going to get clobbered the hardest by Brexit.</span>

Those same heartlands voted for Brexit.

Now they were ill advised to do so but the problem from Labours viewpoint is whether people will backtrack or whether if Labour goes against it whether those heartlands will go for UKIP or other semi camouflaged tory subsidary. Bearing in mind the hard right press will do their best to blame Labour for the asset stripping of their proprietors mates.

Labour have already had a taste of how damaging referendums can be in Scotland when despite digging the tories out of their mess they got all the blame.

It wouldnt be representing their constituents well if the same scenario is repeated in their heartlands.

<span style="color: #444444; font-size: 12px; background-color: #eeeeee;">Has everyone forgotten about Farage?</span>

He is really just a tory who got into a hissy fit and left the party and then found it far more fun and less hard work being a rebellious outsider.

Given the choice between disaster capitalism and disaster socialism we might hope that all bar the zealots on either side would actually try to avoid the disaster rather than just play along with it in the hope that their “side” won in the resulting blame game.

@teamhurtmore

Troll post. Nothing more.

Labour have already had a taste of how damaging referendums can be in Scotland when despite digging the tories out of their mess they got all the blame.

A fair point. And you could point to this as a reason for Corbyn refusing to appear at major Manifestio campaign events… but, while that might help the Labour Party, it still contributes to our current position, which isn't rosey.

Everyone should read kelvin's link and all the Retreaters should just shut the **** up then **** off.

You could have added something to stop being labelled as such kelvin. Your choice.

or edit multiple times 😉

<span style="color: #444444; font-size: 16px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;">you have to find your villains outside the Tories</span>

Not really. The referendum was a direct priduct of Tory in-fighting.

As you perfectly well know.

Zippy… no one should ____ off or ____ up… what they should do is read about how we have made the EU what it is today, and consider how we might shape it in future (but, obviously that means remaining a member).

Kelvin .Retreaters  (leavers) not Remainers.

Nope.

If they were split even less reason to place the blame exclusively on them

17.4m didn’t vote for our side. If you want to blame someone, blame them. Frankly we should blame ourselves - we couldn’t present a decent case for remaining and we lost. But some folk always find taking responsibility difficult don’t they? Much easier to blame others....

Retreaters (leavers) not Remainers.

No, Retreaters should read, talk and stay. Plenty of decent people who want out have no idea how strong we have been in the EU, or the benefits we gain from it. Don't dismiss them because of how they voted "back then". There is no chance of either membership, or any other close relationship with the EU, without changing minds about what the EU is, why it is how it is, and how we shape its future (or our relationship with it). The EU will be around for a long time… it needs to be delt with… easier to do so if more people understand it, and the UK's role in shaping it.

In its current format the EU won’t be around very long. They need to move to full political union if they hope to make the flawed concept of a common currency work.

17.4m didn’t vote for our side. If you want to blame someone, blame them. Frankly we should blame ourselves – we couldn’t present a decent case for remaining and we lost. But some folk always find taking responsibility difficult don’t they? Much easier to blame others….

But over 17 million did, your response is to completely ignore that part of the pipulation from now to eternity.

The remain case didn't promise the unicorns and streets paved with gold. It had to contend with years of tabloid lies and hate. Years of political neglect in many areas.

"Labour have already had a taste of how damaging referendums can be in Scotland when despite digging the tories out of their mess they got all the blame."

That's the myth but it's clearly untrue- Labour's collapse started before the referendum. It just became a convenient excuse.

(just to get one step ahead, people have tried to support the myth on here by quoting general election results and ignoring the scottish parliament, so please don't do that again, it's really silly)

Don't feed Mike… or at least wrap his quote in a