Following on from some one above I also strongly believe that local government is best.
Parish councils should be able to veto district, district should veto county etc.
However I am honest. I care sod all for Albania or where ever if its at my own expense.
"Things like privacy and data protection that eu law gives the UK is a good thing. "
We can still do that if we wish. Indeed any supposed social issue can still be chosen if we wish but we don't need to be told what to do.
I found the report r4 did on Norway revealing, the infamous fax machine and the cost for them to deal with the EU, 7th largest contributor and no sway/vote/influence on how it's run and they still have to implement a lot of the directives... That'll go down like a lead balloon with the kippers if that's the result.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06wj1bt ]Here[/url]
😯I don't for a moment believe that an Out vote in this referendum will result in us leaving the EU, but it will result in a stronger negotiating position and force a change in direction from the EU.
So you think if we vote to leave the politicians will ignore this mandate and that the EU will capitulate to make us stay and the other 27 will change their views and redesign the EU just to keep us in the club we dont want to be in
Why do you think any of this?
You sound like Nigel at the end of a lock in 😉
I was a strong in now undecided because of the way the EU has treated Greece.
I fear, however, that the EU referendum debate will make the Scottish referendum debate seem well-informed
I suspect the cases for and agin will be as well presented as they were in the referendum on voting reform.
In for me.
I'm not sure which way to vote.
I'd like to see some actual FACTS about the advantages and disadvantages but all I can seem to find is propaganda from one side or the other.
This sums it up for me although I am tending towards "Out".
In.
Everyone contemplating voting out, you are thinking about putting me out of business. Thanks.
In,
I work as a construction consultant. The number of construction regeneration projects that have come about thanks to EU funding regenerating areas of the country that our own government cant be bothered with is staggering and the benefit that they bring to these local communities is immeasurable.
leaving would be a financial disaster for the UK; particularly the areas that aren't in the SE where the gov. seem to think the UK stops.
the EU is not without its problems, but what in life is perfect? the proposals they put in place are at least considered for the 'greater good'
In
This is all of course basing the vote on things within the EU as they stand, by the time the vote takes place (June?). And given whats happening at the moment, thats one hell of an assumption.
The EU leaders don't want to admit it, but the whole freedom of movement principle, which the whole EU thing is based on, is teetering on the verge of collapse. Under pressure from the greatest movement of people since the second world war. Estimates are that over a million more refugees are going to arrive on europes shores this year. Hows the EUn going to cope with that. Not very well, if present chaos is anything to go by.
And if the borders close, which is looking increasingly likely, then Greece will immediately become what is essentially a huge bankrupt refugee camp, who's economy will then completely collapse. And what chain reaction will that cause in the still ridiculously fragile Euro? It certainly isn't going to be pretty. It could potentially be absolutely catastrophic, and as a worst case scenario, cause the messy end of the whole Shengin EU project.
In which case, this is all academic
The financial figures of what we will get hit with to leave are very, very, very scary
Go on , scare me then! 🙂
Seriously, can you expand please as wish to learn more
.
Junkyard - lazarus
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+1 🙂
I think they lost me here;
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/23/uk-european-commission-eu-budget-contribution
Eurostat arrived at the €2.1bn figure on the basis of new methods of calculating member states’ GNI since 1995, taking account of previously unreported or under-reported black economy elements, such as drug dealing and consumption or the sex industry.
Actually Gordimhor +1
I'm all for more integration tbh, if its done right! And yes that means I'm happy to see "sovereignty" given away.
For all its faults, I'm not seeing the alternatives as being really any better.
[quote=piemonster ]Junkyard - lazarus
.
+1
Truthfully I posted on here a comment for another thread 😳
The way I like to look at the in vs. out debate is to think purely about politicians.
If you think the [i]majority[/i] of them work hard for the voting public, never let their personal interests get in the way of duty and don’t let dogma get in the way of pragmatic reasoned debate and the interests of the country then fine.
If, on the other hand, you think there are many and various interests which divert politicians from their duties, chief among which being cronyism and the lure of big business, banking and big politics, then why would you want to support (through your taxes) more layers of politicians rather than fewer?
Don’t forget that a lot of the pro-EU lot are singing for their own post-UK political suppers, as the likes of Mandelson, Kinnock, Baroness Ashton etc. etc. know; the EU (as well, for that matter as the IMF) is a nice gravy train to hop onto, once you have finished achieving great things in British politics.
British politics doesn't have a gravy train?
Out. I'm going to sound a little like Nige, which is worrying
True
, but net immigration of 300000+ per year damages our ability to run and manage our own economy. It places downwards pressure on wages, and upwards pressure on housing needs and therefore prices.
False
The free movement of people is damaging to both our economy and the economies of the rest of Europe.
False ^2
I don't for a moment believe that an Out vote in this referendum will result in us leaving the EU, but it will result in a stronger negotiating position and force a change in direction from the EU.
Possibly true
Imagine the vengeance the English populace would have wanted doled out on those pesky Scots if they had left.
Europe would do that to us. Finances wouldn't enter into it, Brit bashing would be a vote winner for any euro politician.
Imagine the vengeance the English populace would have wanted doled out on those pesky Scots if they had left.
No, they would have been smiling quietly as Salmond prepared his March 2016 budget - imagine that, all the hot air gone and the cold hard face of reality and truth
Europe would do that to us. Finances wouldn't enter into it, Brit bashing would be a vote winner for any euro politician
Right up until voters saw less money in their pocket through harming a major trading partner. Money talks, the BS would have to walk.
I vote out because didnt Dave say he'd stand down if the 'outs' won the referendum?
I say this as someone who voted him in , in the last GE.
Out
If it were just a common market, In.
My uncle used to work for the nascent EU in the late 70's, staggeringly large organization even then. This is an organization that cant even agree to have the government building in one place all year round, struggles to persuade all members to use the same currency and will force member states to keep repeating votes until there way is accepted.
Of course it does, which all of us - one way or another - pay for.piemonster - MemberBritish politics doesn't have a gravy train?
I don't understand why that means you would want to fund yet another? What logic are you arguing here?
I don't think anyone can know the implications either way of in or out and that includes politicians, economists etc. It's all just speculation about what might or might not occur in the future. No-one can predict how the World will develop in future and all the issues which may arise.
I also believe that politicians are a bunch of pathalogical liars and that even an "out" vote won't result in us actually leaving the EU. There's just too much vested interest that couldn't possibly allow that to happen.
I think in or out of the EU there will be issues for Britain going forwards, some pros some cons either way. It's a bit of a non-issue as far as I am concerned. I do think if we are in we might as well go the whole hog and embrace the euro etc. I'm getting fed up exchanging currency every time I go to Europe!
Possibly but the point was that the [s]english[/s]rUK would have extracted harsh terms for leaving - have you anything to negate the point that was made?No, they would have been smiling quietly as Salmond prepared his March 2016 budget - imagine that, all the hot air gone and the cold hard face of reality and truth
[i]Part of me thinks more local decisions and less centralised is a Good Thing[/i]
I think you'll find that we will be governed from London, in or out...
So 'In', status quo.
In of course.
Where do you think old people with spare time, get the money from to get access and build paths and trails for walkers, mountain bikers and horses. Even then they can't spend it fast enough!
Trail Addiction and the like would probably NOT exist otherwise. All those resorts must get development money. Even Scottish ski centres get development funding from europe.
Out.
If it was just a common market in, but it's not so I'm out. No idea about the consequences of a successful out vote but I'm prepared to find out.
So IF the the result was to come out of the EU, how long is the process of leaving?
Months, weeks, years, a decade?
I'm undecided. I'm totally against a United States of Europe and think we've probably already gone too far towards that. I also hate the corruption going on in Europe and the European parliment - I can't believe after so much Politician Bashing on this forum and amongst the general pupulous after the expenses and other scandals, that so many want to give their endorsement to the European Political rabble who make ours look like Mother Teresa. Also at every possible opportunity on the global stage the EU has proven itself to be a weak, incompetent and pathetic institution incapable of making any quick and decisive decisions. We also need to rescue our sovereignty and control of our boarders.
However the cons against the OUT side are that the rest of the world are making aliances and if we leave then we're at risk of being left out in the cold as the rest of the world buddies up and starts to protect their own alliances and territories. If we vote OUT i think we'll proably initially thrive, but after 10 years or so will start to fall behind. Also no point in being out and being in a similar situation as Norway - that would be a disaster and very harmful for us.
It's a tricky one and I think we're probably screwed either way. If we vote in then we've effectively given the EU lisence ot ride rough shot over us as they'll see our IN vote as an endorsement. If we vote out then when it eventually goes pear shaped for us (and it will at some point) then we'll have to go back to the EU cap in hand and we will receive no warm welcome and will be screwed over by them givng the EU the opportunity they've wanted for centuries.
So IF the the result was to come out of the EU, how long is the process of leaving?
Months, weeks, years, a decade?
I think the whole point is that nobody really knows as its never happened before. I imagine it'll be very complicated and very, very messy, with loads of unforeseen consequences.
I'd imagine that the crowing of the Tory backbenches and UKIP would be very very very short-lived as the reality of the monumental ****-up sank in with everyone else
In, it would be a potentially massive problem for my industry if we left but more importantly for me I consider myself at least as much European as I do British and would like to see that identity represented politically.
Out.
In.
Economic suicide to leave.
IME, the most ardent of 'out' people I've spoken to tend to be either retired, or self employed sole trader/small business type people who are in service industry sector. People who work in business sectors that are regularly dealing with international clients realise we'll be screwed outside the EU. I don't think the general population is really aware of the number of major foreign companies who have manufacturing in the UK because we are in the EU - Nissan, Toyota, Honda, BMW etc. The Japanese companies manufacture here to get around EU quotas, so they're not going to hang around if the UK leaves the EU.
My OH is currently working on a project for a very large International company - they are putting together their detailed plan of action of how to pull their business out of the U.K. if the country leaves the EU. (Bit worrying, as they employ thousands of people). Her opinion is that if these guys are planning to go, all of their major clients will be doing the same thing.
I guess I may be biased, as many years ago I used to work for a Govt Dept that doled out European funding for regeneration, infrastructure and environmental projects - again, because of the lack of positive press coverage, I think the general population are completely unaware of the amount of money the EU contributes to big projects. The sums of money we were dealing with were so massive, most people wouldn't believe it (bilions - just mind bending when I think of it now, especially as none of us had any accounting experience!!)
Something that did strike most of the staff where I worked was the difference in approach that Britain (under Thatcher/Major Govt) took with the EU. The British approach at the time seemed a bit blasé and compromised, in contrast, the Dutch, Belgian, German and French picked the brightest people with solid backgrounds in their respective fields - we had a spot audit done by a couple of senior auditors from Brussels. My boss took them out for an evening meal, and the following morning, he announced to myself and my colleague - "boys, we're f***ed" :)) The EU guys were very sharp, and didn't pull any punches - they were definately not into creating loads of red tape, but were all about efficiency and knowing where every penny of their money was going. The EU auditors both had years of accountancy experience and they were frankly aghast when they found out that our office didn't have an accounting qualification between the 8 of us. (It was shortly after that that I decided I needed a career change.....Rat...sinking ship yada yada 🙂 )
givng the EU the opportunity they've wanted for centuries.
An impressive achievement given when it was formed.
[b]Out! Out! Out! [/b]
I am more than capable of deciding for meself.
Yeap, you may bombard me with all your "facts" but I ain't born yesterday nor am I a naive, ignorant living in utopia.
People who keep going on about economic and political suicide you might as well say the world will collapse coz you truly have no confident in the British people. 🙄
Obvious is obvious ... I see you coming and I told you so. 😆
Out.
Undecided. But toying with 'No' on the basis it won't result in us leaving, but a bet re-negotiated package. The UK is one of the biggest contributors to the EU and buys a lot from France and Germany etc. would they suddenly just let us walk away, I doubt it.
On the argument that we get money back for regeneration money from the EU, how would that balance with the £11.3bn (2013), we put in?
In,
For one overriding reason. Whether people like it or not, thanks to modern communications, transport and the internet, the world is on a path to greater integration and diversity technologically, economically, socially, culturally, and yes, politically. It's pretty much inevitable that the future will be one of less well defined nation states, and much less defined national identity. Are we really going to swim against the tide and think little old Britain can go it alone? For all it's many evils, the EU is going to be one of the main vehicles for managing this future shift to a world where nation states become less important so leaving now at such a pivotal time in history would be idiotic.
And yeah, what Binners said, look at who the main supporters of leaving are. That tells you all you need to know really.
Out.
The UK is big enough to look after itself. I remember the same predictions of disaster when the decision on joining the Euro was being taken.
Ease of travel? I holiday regularly in the USA. Why would going to Europe be harder?
As for those quoting EU funding for various things? That is our cash coming back after deductions for EU fraud and bureaucracy.
