Got any specific instances of EU bureaucracy and their impact that you want to be rid of?

The whole institution is a waste of space as individual nation states have already been doing what needs to be done.  Yes, standards might be different but that is for the nation states (own peculiarities) to deal with or to coordinate amongst themselves.

Chewkw – far more efficient to get rid of nation bureaucrats and do it once in a centralised function.

You continue to make a case for remaining.

But a lot of people voted remain (or weren’t allowed to vote) and they don’t deserve punishment.

True, but even then they are not blameless. Two years after the referendum a significant number of the 48% voted for parties that support brexit. And just like the young, they sit at their computers in their social media bubble whining to their mates about how they’ve been screwed by stupid people. Myself included. Like I said, we get what we deserve.

What about families, companies, communities that straddle national borders?

I have absolutely no sympathy for **** who voted leave and suffer the consequences. But a lot of people voted remain (or weren’t allowed to vote) and they don’t deserve punishment.

That is not how life works. We all get to suffer rules or restrictions to protect the most vulnerable or inept of us…

when collectively we allow ourselves to be driven by hate or we neglect large groups to an extent that they feel so disengaged we all have to suffer to learn the lesson.

The fact that many of the people driving the process have done it for economic advancement and we will let them is perhaps even worse.

how many people on here understand how national and local government works? Who their representatives at each level are? What the responsibilities of the government and the individual are? How to voice displeasure at each level?

i understand some basics but am pretty ignorant. Non of this was taught at school…

I’ll take that as a no then. Why do you think that having 20+ different standards in ANY subject area would be better than having one common standard?

…but that is for the nation states (own peculiarities) to deal with <u>or to coordinate amongst themselves</u>.

Good idea!  We could cooperate with other counties to work on shared standards, simplifying trade and sharing the costs of administration between us.  Overall bureaucracy would be decreased.  You could also give it a special name… Something with ‘Union’ in it, perhaps…

In the end everyone will get what they deserve

100% untrue.

Take for example, the UK car industry where UK is only manufacturing low end stuff while those requiring high technological skills are maintained by the EU side.

Chewkw now appears to be making an argument for remaining in the EU.

He’s been dong that a bit recently.

King of fruits.

Oh it may be old but…

Chewkw – far more efficient to get rid of nation bureaucrats and do it once in a centralised function.

You continue to make a case for remaining.

Centralised … 😀

Sounds like someone is in contradiction with own views. 😀

Marx Weber might agree with you to some extend but as modern society increasingly demand individual freedom etc the heading for a centralised function is exactly the polar opposite for a modern society.  i.e. on the one hand there is a strong demand for freedom etc yet on the other hand you want to take it away.

We all know that bureaucracy will turn into pear shape once it grows into a monster and even Weber acknowledged that.

The question is whether you understand the meaning of bureaucracy and their implications or simply because there is another agenda of systematically chipping away individual freedom.

King of fruits.

If I drive one of those “Batmobile” everyday then I am King of the road and you can also refer to me as King of fruits.  😀

What Jeremy Clarkson does not want to say in that clip is that some of the brands are assembled here. Yes, the smaller outfits might have built the entire car here but not all parts are manufactured here.  Also you would have to be a King of fruits to use them as your daily commute.   😀

The EU gives me “individual freedoms” way beyond those my nation state can/will provide me unilaterally. It also helps protect me from an overreaching nation state, whether my own or one of 30+ others, with its support for supranational rights and courts.

bureaucracy

I think it’s clear to most people now, that we will  be duplicating and increasing bureaucracy by leaving the EU.

not all parts are manufactured here

Why should they be? Build a car to sell in many countries… make use of suppliers in many countries … seems sound to me.

That Top Gear video made be proud when I first watched it… now it just makes me sad. What would a 2025 remake look like I wonder? The Mini/Oxford billboard was the first thing to make me start pondering…

Also you would have to be a King of fruits to use them as your daily commute.

Minis, Honda Civics and Fords?

Embarrassing for chewy that brexit is creating more of his dreaded bureaucracy than we have now.

Bit hhes got to cling to something I suppose

Token broken English posts by chewkw to maintain the facade

That Top Gear video made be proud when I first watched it… now it just makes me sad. What would a 2025 remake look like I wonder?

The EU gives me “individual freedoms” way beyond those my nation state can/will provide me unilaterally. It also helps protect me from an overreaching nation state, whether my own or one of 30+ others, with its support for supranational rights and courts.

No, the EU bureaucratic system has not given people anything extra beyond that of a nation state as democracy has already prevailed in Western society.

Just because some people do not agree with the individual nation, recent case of the threat to sanction Hungary, that does not mean the entire nation is wrong after all individual nation has elected their leader democratically.  When the EU bureaucratic system starts to object or interfere with the individual nation, it is essentially over ruling democracy by imposing their own views.  Who are they to say other culture, society or identity are wrong?

The irony is that the champion of democracy (the West) has actually created a system, EU bureaucratic system, just to curtail themselves. 😀

That is why we, in the far east, tell the West (ideology) to stay out and keep out.   😀

I think it’s clear to most people now, that we will be duplicating and increasing bureaucracy by leaving the EU.

Nation states have always existed in their own form.  The duplicity comes from EU bureaucratic system Not from the nation states.

Minis, Honda Civics and Fords?

No, the “batmobile” you posted or some of the sport cars that are impractical other than for the few with £££ to spend.

Why should they be? Build a car to sell in many countries… make use of suppliers in many countries … seems sound to me.

Build? You mean assemble?  If you want to work on assembly line then what is the point of the education increasingly emphasise on getting people to improve on their technology skills/knowledge etc?  What is the point when only some get to practice or to put into good use of what they have learned?

That Top Gear video made be proud when I first watched it… now it just makes me sad. What would a 2025 remake look like I wonder? The Mini/Oxford billboard was the first thing to make me start pondering…

Top Gear is for entertainment and for those who love cars.  It is just an entertainment.

Ah you’re just ignoring the rear then.

Ah you’re just ignoring the rear then.

Nope, like in my previous thread (the one with FT link) most of the cars in your example, youtbue clip, are mostly assembled here.  They are not exactly “made” here. Brand perhaps started here but then it all gone downhill after the brand …

<div class=”bbp-reply-author”>dazh
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What would you have them do? Oppose it and kill any chances of being elected, fully support it and kill any chances of being elected, or try to sit on the fence until events swing the scales to one side or the other? I reckon the labour party are playing it just right, and evidence of the last election would seem to support that.

Said it before but I think Labour have decided- rightly- that they need to wait for Brexit to fail- be obviously a total disaster- before they can oppose it. Until then, they’ll be portrayed as the people who destroyed it. The trouble is, May’s government is so incompetent that they’ve so far failed to even deliver failure.

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As long as the fantasy brexit of the referendum still exists, it’s dangerous to oppose. Once it actually evaporates things change,and change fast. But only brexit progress and decision making will do that. Right now people have never seen a brexit so they can still believe that it breathes fire and shits gold, but as soon as we actually capture a brexit and put it in a cage we’ll be able to see it’s basically a blobfish.

Which British brand has gone downhill and is making worse cars than before?

Said it before but I think Labour have decided- rightly- that they need to wait for Brexit to fail- be obviously a total disaster- before they can oppose it. Until then, they’ll be portrayed as the people who destroyed it. The trouble is, May’s government is so incompetent that they’ve so far failed to even deliver failure.

Do you mean the focus is getting the Party to win over the importance of the Nation?  😀

Hang on… THM is on a ban and chewkw is suddenly posting several times a day?

Which British brand has gone downhill and is making worse cars than before?

Which brand of cars is still British? It is one industry we did manage to ruin. Luckily we do or did excel at a few others.

it is very odd that Chewkw has suddenly become coherent and seems to be advocating all assembly/factory jobs should be shed in favour of high tech ones. While the idea that high tech jobs can add more value could be sound, not everyone can do a high tech job.

mind you once the borders are controlled and the empire re-established we can import highly skilled people and drop all the serfs into the sea…

Note that the “labour playing the clever waiting game” still requires them to not win an election before brexit has been seen to fail. It would help to explain Corbyn’s dire performance but there is a more straightforward explanation for that.

how many people on here understand how national and local government works? Who their representatives at each level are? What the responsibilities of the government and the individual are? How to voice displeasure at each level?

i understand some basics but am pretty ignorant. Non of this was taught at school…

I’m not one for conspiracy theories but ….I wonder why non of this is taught at school.

However, like you I understand some basics yet the more I understand the more shambolic the “democracy”

Whether its cash or questions or obvious conflicts of interest our own system seems far from democratic if the basis of this is if you don’t like something an elected representative does you don’t need to vote for that person.. be it local or regional or national…

How many people on here can say which acts their MP actually bothered to turn up to vote for just this session let alone if they voted the way they would have elected them to vote?  Not that I’d expect my MP to vote every time how I’d want them to vote but on balance they should be mostly voting the way I’d like or I voted for the wrong MP.  My point is most of us have no clue… has anyone ever checked what their MP voted on something really important and then asked why they voted the way they did?

Local is no different… we had a consultation last year on speed reduction measures on our avenue.

I don’t know a single person expressed a preference to implement them… (I’m sure some may have) but after I mentioned this to someone in the know they just laughed and said the contract was already promised… consultation was a formality they had no intention of even reading.  I wasn’t convinced until they named the contractor and then 3 months later… yep…

Which British brand has gone downhill and is making worse cars than before?

Bentley

Statista

Ford

Carslaesbase

Land Rover

Carsalesbase

Caterham

Casesalesbase

RR

Carsalesbase

UK component parts import … crikey at 78.8%

Motor vehicle trade between the UK and its main EU partners

Just go check it out yourself on those websites …

and the next twist, May stating no new referendum in this parliament, but also making It clear work with chequers or GE.

sub text GE and new referendum if chequers fails.

messy.

Hang on… THM is on a ban and chewkw is suddenly posting several times a day?

Nah! Chewkw can copy and paste links.

When the EU bureaucratic system starts to object or interfere with the individual nation, it is essentially over ruling democracy by imposing their own views.

How  is that overriding democracy?

If (just for example) a country voted not to leave the EU would it be overriding democracy for a Union to override that because more members of the union disagreed?

Nation states essentially exist to limit individual freedom.

Most of what they do can be done by councils (albeit you’d need a large council).

However councils don’t tell me I’m not allowed to work in (say) Leeds because I was born in Hull.  Or that need special paperwork to do so.

Councils don’t impose import tariffs on each other to stop / limit me doing business with another council area.

Councils don’t declare war on each other (physical or tariff).  Actually bureaucracies don’t either – that tends to be elected politicians.

Nation states came into being for the benefit of the ruler / ruling class.

i look forward to the end of nation states and the increase in personal freedom that will bring.

In so far as the EU breaks down borders and diminishes nation states it is a brilliant thing.

if Chewkw you wish to live under the yoke of the Westminster elite and their ilk (eg BoJo, JRM, Farage, etc) thatvis your choice – I wish you didn’t want to impose your anti-freedom values on the rest of us.

it is very odd that Chewkw has suddenly become coherent and seems to be advocating all assembly/factory jobs should be shed in favour of high tech ones.

You have just twisted my words.

I did Not say shed jobs but actually said most high teach manufacturing in car components are in the hands of EU while UK get the very basic left overs.

Nevermind Chewkw, after Brexit the EU can have the rest of the car jobs too. 😘

Incidentally given where the car giants site their research centres I’m not sure you can actually make the broad generalisation you have. I think they are shared around.

Nah! Chewkw can copy and paste links.

Those are interesting statistical information.  😀

Nevermind Chewkw, after Brexit the EU can have the rest of the car jobs too.

That is why it is important to start bringing back some high end technology development unless people are happy becoming the assembly “robots”

How is that overriding democracy?

If (just for example) a country voted not to leave the EU would it be overriding democracy for a Union to override that because more members of the union disagreed?

Refer to the case of Hungary.

Those are interesting statistical information.

Yup proof we need to stay in the EU.

Do you mean the focus is getting the Party to win over the importance of the Nation?

That’s the focus of any of our political parties and why being in the EU is a good idea. It acts as a moderator to those short sighted halfwits we have running this country.

I wish you didn’t want to impose your anti-freedom values on the rest of us.

Do as you wish as I don’t impose on you other than use my vote in a democracy.

Not sure I can vote for the EU bureaucrats though.

That’s the focus of any of our political parties and why being in the EU is a good idea. It acts as a moderator to those short sighted halfwits we have running this country.

Interesting view that. 😀

Yup proof we need to stay in the EU.

Read and interpret the statistic as you wish.  😀

Folks, ok enough for the day … me dinner time now.