eMTB question if I may?

I have a relative who has shown an eagerness to go mountain biking to lose weight and get fit. He is, and won’t mind me saying so either, huge. Like 23-24 stone, and not in a worlds strongest man way either, I am talking zero fitness, sweats gravy type of way. I’ve let him borrow my rigid surly and have taken him out twice now on forest track rides which I thought were fairly flat without resorting to going along a canal or old railway cycle path. Trouble is when he hits even the slightest of incline he grinds to a halt, just can’t pedal up them at all. He has enjoyed it though which is encouraging, and I’m sure each ride he will get better, but I fear he might collapse and die on me at somepoint and I don’t really want that.

Before I bring up the subject of an eMTB with him, has anyone had experience with them for the heavier person? Does the extra power still do it’s job even with the extra rider weight and will it get him up some longer inclines? Will the battery still last a few hours or will it drain too fast pushing that type of load? I know there will be non MTB e-bikes which could handle it easily but I’d like to keep him at mountain biking if I can. I assume he will start to drop weight and gain a basic level of fitness fairly quickly once he gets going so it will be a bit easier on a bike longer term as he does so.

Anyone got any recomendations? Any pointers to save me some time on research?

I can’t comment on durability but yes it will still help to get him up the hills which is presumably the problem for him, and will thus allow him to go further and hence get fitter.

Undoubtedly range will be reduced but is he really going to be going further than 30-40kms initially which it will still easily handle, and as he gets fitter and loses weight the range will increase.

Sounds like a good idea to me, just make sure he has a good stock of brake pads!

Biggest concern is that they’ll fall off, I’m a fat git myself at the moment(just over 18st), and I don’t fancy crashing(though I’ll handle it, crashing is something I’m not bad at (/was, hoping that’s past tense tbh!) :lol: , but it hurts more the bigger you are though! ), 22/23st is one hell of a bump, so don’t take him on any stupid stuff, the bike will make them over confident.

As for fitness, it really depends on the effort he puts in, you can put zero or loads of effort into them. You can cycle them almost as hard, still some bit away from a real bike, but aye they can knacker ye that’s for sure.

Distance wise, is really depending on how much gravity you want to beat (hills) and how much rolling restistance there is (tyre pressue/how soft the ground is/wind etc)

You want to pay attention to the KWHs the bike has, also torque for getting them up the hills, I’d imagine most new mtb ebikes will be fine.

to workout battery range, it’ll be something like – 48v 11.4ah, so 48 x 11.4 = 547 watt hours.

On hilly off road stuff, I’ve ran the battery down in about 18 miles, could do it in faster I reckon, that was at full assist, but terrain and conditions could have been worse.

On the converse, I’d have gone a fair further if I left the assist well down to 3-5, I was just curious to see how far full assist would get me.need to test it much more to get full confidence in a rang of conditions

I took my bro out to balloch for a bimble along the clyde the other week, did 24 miles on it and only used 1 out of 5 bars. think he was on assist 3 or 4 the whole way(out of 9.) so I reckon you could have a silly range on flat stuff.

tbh, it all depends on how the bike is ridden and the terrain, the amount of watt hours available, what assist level is used etc, it’s a good idea. But you need to play with it to get a sense of range in different conditions.

Basically if you go on any form of excursion make sure there are 2 or 3 bail out points on the way.

Don’t forget the upper body strength you need to rattle one of those things about offroad too, they are heavy. (memories of my bro going head first into the first burn crossing heading up glen feshie fully loaded still makes me giggle! :lol: don’t press the throttle, arrgh wallop, again! )

to  be honest, I’m tempted to get one myself, they are great fun. (I’d probably just get one of the bafang kits and fire it on to my existing bike, cheapest way to do it.)

ps and you’ll end up with a lighter bike for the money, the £2k emtbs kicking about just now seem to be about 24kg. a 12.5kg mtb with the bafang kit comes out 20/21 kg depending on options. (obviously only really viable if you;ve a bike that’s good enough for a conversion.)

30kms/18miles would be ideal, if a battery can handle that ok then it looks like it could be a good idea. Won’t be doing anything more hardcore than some XC mincing for now at least as he is a total beginner so hopefully falling off won’t be happening too often, although once or twice for my own amusement would be good.

It’s mainly the hills that is holding him back, and picking routes that doesn’t have many is a bit of a pain. If he can get up a few good climbs with the assistance that will open up a lot more options. And to be honest it’s brutal for me slowing down to half walking pace so he can keep up.

Hadn’t even thought about a conversion kit, you’ve gave me something to look into there. He could fit one to my surly or could pick up a decent 2nd hand hardtail for not a lot. Doesn’t need anything fancy really.

http://eclipsebikes.com/ seem to be the cheapest about.

Just remember dont get too upset when he’s blasting up the hills and you are blowing out your arse trying to keep up! :lol:

range tbh is something you’ll need to work out, If I say 18. could easily mean 12 for him (I did run the battery down full throttle on the flat in 14 miles, half single track half road one time, just out of curiosity)(but i did hit 38mph for a whack of that!) faster speed drains the battery quicker too. rider weight does have a significant effect also.

for the legal 250W 36V bafang, biggest watt hours combo I can see is 36 x 17.4 = 626KWH. if you go 48V (and illegal 500/750/1000W engine), biggest you’ll get is 48 x 17.4 = 835KWH which is pretty massive. There’s a conundrum there in whether you care about the legality of it all though!

ps, If I get one it’ll be the 250 I think with that 626KWH battery, and no throttle. before every one jumps down my neck! The 1000W is awesome though! :lol: and will get anyone up anything!

probably as well seeing if you can hire one before buying though.

Just remember dont get too upset when he’s blasting up the hills and you are blowing out your arse trying to keep up!

It has crossed my mind, think I’ll disable the throttle or get one without! :D

There’s a conundrum there in whether you care about the legality of it all though!

Not really, won’t be anywhere where it should upset anyone.

I’ll have a look at all the configurations, more I think about the more it looks like a goer rangewise. He will mostly be out with me at least till he gets some confidence and experience so I don’t think full assist will be used as much as it would be if you were out yourself or with another ebiker.

probably as well seeing if you can hire one before buying though.

Yes, I will take him out on a hire/demo bike first.

Hi,

can’t help with all points but18 miles shouldn’t be a problem (based on shimano 8000 engine 500w battery experiences) – make them go into off mode downhill and on flats

just fyi – see https://www.rutlandcycling.com/bikes/electric-bikes/scott-e-scale-710-2017-electric-hardtail-mountain-bike-grey_373435?origin=pla&kwd=&currency=GBP&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIl5XtjNf72gIVybftCh1AeQEaEAQYASABEgJONvD_BwE#infospec

there are a few old model bargains about if you hunt

check battery capacity (some 400 and some are 500wh (and others))

as far as i can see warranty is original owner only

also  the motors tend to work better at higher cadence so you might want to research/test ride as it’s a lot of money

Also looking at the range on the complete bikes, I’ve noticed that around 400/500WH(edit watt hours! I keep writing KWH!) seems to be the industry standard they are settling on. I’d want more myself I reckon. so would probably factor in a spare battery for bigger days out.

They also seem to be introducing things like fast charging aswell. It’ll be really interesting how it’ll all look range wise in 5 years I think.

I’d be looking at frame motor types avoid the cheaper hub motors as axles aren’t the strogest.

You will find that he exceeds the rated weight if the bike by some significant margin. I’m a shade under 18st and bang on the limit for my Trek Powerfly.

Max range I’ve seen is 28 miles with 3500ft of climbing all done in Eco mode on my first ride. Subsequent rides have been in higher assist modes which is way more fun but generally shorter. I doubt I could do 2 laps of the Verderers Trail in Boost mode…

I’d be looking at frame motor types avoid the cheaper hub motors as axles aren’t the strogest.

aye middrive all the way.

Been looking at some of those middrive kits built onto other surly bikes, looks straightforward enough. Doesn’t look too bad either aesthetically and the battery at least can be hidden in a frame bag should the need arise!

Aye, they’re fairly easy to fit, if you can replace a BB you can fit them. They use the older style cranks though, so you’ll need the crank extractor tool, can’t mind what you call it square taper maybe?(I’m guessing there) I just watched my bro fit it, it wasn’t difficult, after that, it’s just tiding up cables and connecting bits and bobs.

Some more numbers you might be interested in, in regards to getting up hills oomph. Is the peak power possible on them. They are usually rated at 250W, 500, 750, 1000. but that’s continuous power, ie the battery should be able to run forever at those without overheating. but peak power, is how it’ll handle unsustained bursts of power (something like that anyhow, I’m just regurgitating stuff I’ve read.)

Anyhow the sum is.

Controller amps x battery voltage.

ie on the 250W 36V, the controller is 15A, so with a 36V battery, you are looking at 15 x 36 = 540W peak power(hill climbing oomph)

at the far end(I’ll let you figure out the in between)

1000W 48V controller is 30A, so 48 x 30 = 1440W peak power.

Just thought that’d be of interest to ye. (I think these bits might be customisable too to a degree.)

And to be honest it’s brutal for me slowing down to half walking pace so he can keep up.

I’ve had your pain when I’ve taken unfit riders to the Peak District. I ride up a hill and the other very unfit riders can’t make any gains in pace on the walkers who are walking up it. Makes me loose the will to bother and makes me think “I’d rather be riding solo” “what’s the point in this?” etc

Yes an Ebike is definitely the answer if money is no object

Ebikes are very capable. 40K + hilly off-road rides at average speeds of over 20 km/h are possible, from what I’ve seen on Strava. I see average riders on Strava who get Ebikes and are suddenly faster than the pros on everything except the descents, average speeds over a long distance are better than the top riders on normal bikes.

Don’t worry, the force has been restored, you climbing superheros can rest easy, you’ve got something to chase now! :lol:

1000W 48V controller is 30A, so 48 x 30 = 1440W peak power.

He will not be getting one of them! Seen a clip on youtube, bike was flying!

ie on the 250W 36V, the controller is 15A, so with a 36V battery, you are looking at 15 x 36 = 540W peak power(hill climbing oomph)

This is the sensible option I think. Enough to give him a boost up the hills but still has to put his own effort in therefore helping his fitness goals. Going to catch up with him over the weekend.

Thanks!

Aye, they are a riot, they aren’t all or nothing though, easily controllable.

The question really comes down to what you want from it. If fitness, then sticking to 250W is definitely the answer i reckon. If you want something just for him to keep up without much effort, you’d need to look a bit higher, particularly the more hilly you get.

Anyhow, glad to help! :) Good luck!

OK no one has said it so I will

If the object is to get fitter than how does adding a motor help?

Elephant has left the room!

OK no one has said it so I will

If the object is to get fitter than how does adding a motor help?

Elephant has left the room!

Erm the basic principles of motion? It’s actually fairly well known that people with ebikes actually ride more than people without them. So ebike equals more regular less intense exercise(they can knock your pan in if you put the effort in).

So he can buy an ebike, use it loads, gain that benefit. Or buy a normal bike, use it 3 times, and fire it in the garage never to be seen again in frustration at the incredibly slow process.

Elephant, pulls up a chairs and sits at the table! :lol:

…or a 3rd option, buy a normal bike, engage will power, ride it more than 3 times, find it tough at first but achieve the aim of getting fitter much more quickly and for less cash.

Your theory essentially suggests that everyone is inherently lazy

As an optimist I don’t want to think like that

If the object is to get fitter than how does adding a motor help?

It will keep him out longer, go further, see more leading to more motivation. But most importantly keeps me interested in taking him out.

Elephant has left the room!

Hey! Don’t call him names.

keeps me interested in taking him out

Get that

…or a 3rd option, buy a normal bike, engage will power, ride it more than 3 times, find it tough at first but achieve the aim of getting fitter much more quickly and for less cash.

Your theory essentially suggests that everyone is inherently lazy

As an optimist I don’t want to think like that

Skinny runt has no concept of how hard it is for someone so big and unused to fitness to get in to it..shocker! :lol:

Listen if you’ve been out the game for a while, couple of weeks sorted and your back up to a comfortable level you can build on. If you’ve been out for a year, a month or 2 sorted to get back to an enjoyable level of fitness. If you never be in. It’s a long long hard journey.

My theory suggest that I understand there’s different base levels of fitness. And that I have a degree of empathy.

Plus who says everyone needs to be fit enough to blast up mountainous hills? It’s not necessary to a basic fitness to be able to do so. neither does everyone have the desire to do so.

Plus the elephant in the room you ignore is that they can quite easily be used as a fitness tool. Even by super human athletes like yourself! :lol:

examples.

1 guy can manage 10 miles on a bike before they are blowing out their arse. Happy days, they can now hit 30 miles for the same effort.

2nd guy can manage 30 miles on a bike before they are blowing out their arse. Happy days, they can now hit 50 miles for the same effort.

3rd guy can manage 50 miles on a bike before they are blowing out their arse. Happy days, they can now hit 80/90 miles for the same effort.

Get it?

Skinny runt has no concept of how hard it is for someone so big and unused to fitness to get in to it..

Nonsense…Iv seen loads of MAHUSIVE people get fit using traditional methods…there is pretty much nothing else on TV these days – especially on channel 5 :)

You watch channel 5? Willingly?

Erm ok. Elephant steps away from the loonball! :lol:

Im 20 stone and have a bosch equipped cube full susser.

the shortest mileage I’ve had out of a 400wh battery is 14 miles, with about 1400 ft climbing, that was in turbo. On road.

the furthest I’ve done in one go is 34 miles, i had about 40% battery left, that was done mostly in eco, about 1400ft climbing. I did walk up the biggest climb, i was worried about putting the motor under too much strain. (I needn’t have worried) on road.

I’v Managed 16 miles off road, using a mixture of power modes, battery was almost flat then.

if you’re sticking to relatively tame xc type terrain, a decent bike will manage that no problem.

on the fitness side of things, I will point out that my heart rate goes (slightly) higher riding my ebike than it does riding a normal rigid mtb/cx bike.

my personal experience is almost exclusively bosch ebikes, but people i trust like seosamh and tj both recommend other brands from personal experience, so I wouldn’t rule those out.

also, re getting a bike ‘chipped’ to bypass the speed limiter, don’t bother, it doesn’t make them any better ime.

Ndthornton, you are absolutely correct, it is quite possible to lose a load of weight and get fit using a normal bike.

or some shoes (ie walking)

the point of an ebike is that because it makes riding a bit easier/more fun, it is more likely to actually get used.

ask yourself this, which is better:

1: regular moderate exercise

2: pushing yourself to the limit 3 times then stopping because it’s too hard/your mate is worried about you having a heart attack

I should make it clear, I’ve no experience with the 250W bbs01b or the 500/750bbs02b(look for the b models btw they were upgraded a while back quietly). All my comments on the above are based on the BBSHD.

ask yourself this, which is better:

1: regular moderate exercise

2: pushing yourself to the limit 3 times then stopping because it’s too hard/your mate is worried about you having a heart attack

Are those the only 2 options? – why?

why not…

3: pushing yourself to the limit 3 times then not stopping because it’s too hard and ignoring your mate who is worried about you having a heart attack because he is wrong, You are not having a heart attack, you are just working hard

3: pushing yourself to the limit 3 times then not stopping because it’s too hard and ignoring your mate who is worried about you having a heart attack because he is wrong, You are not having a heart attack, you are just working hard

Are you a doctor?

You are not having a heart attack, you are just working hard

Aye no heart strain what so ever in a 24st guy trying to keep up with an 11 stone whippet! Surely impossible!

Ndthornton, should no one have any help, at anything ever?

case in point, me.

i had a fleet of very nice, normal bikes, but didn’t ride very often because i wasn’t fit (at all) and even the simplest trail center climb had me wheezing/throwing up.

i got an ebike. I rode it loads.

im now tons fitter, and ride my normal bikes more than ever, rarely ride the ebike now (mrsTHtobe uses it mostly)

I also ride my normal bikes far more now than i did before i had an ebike.

Of course the 2 options i listed aren’t the ONLY options, but the simple fact is regular moderate exercise beats no exercise every time.

i’m no medical expert, but I’d guess it beats having a heart attack too.

and it definitely beats sitting on the couch, any bike ride beats that.

Are you a doctor?

No, he’s from the Fun Police, he’s here to make sure that riding for fitness is a chore and not to be enjoyed.

the point of an ebike is that because it makes riding a bit easier/more fun, it is more likely to actually get used.

I’m probably as anti e-bike as anyone on here. But I can grasp how difficult it must be for a 24st man to get any enjoyment out of mtbing on a regular bike. But I will say if the Op’s friend really wants to shift weight e-biking alone isn’t going to do it. Exercise is going to need the balance of a proper change in diet. Perhaps see a Dr for advise and to check the heart as well. Then good luck to him.

“Plus who says everyone needs to be fit enough to blast up mountainous hills? It’s not necessary to a basic fitness to be able to do so. neither does everyone have the desire to do so.”

This, chill out, run the biggest granny ring you can and plod up the hill conserving as much energy for the fun bit from the top of the hill.

But for someone so overweight and unfit, wouldn’t it be better to start off a bit more modestly to build up some basic fitness and maybe lose a bit of weight before heading for the ‘proper’ trails? the last thing you want is for him to have a heart attack or something because he’s pushing himself too hard too soon.

My dad has a heart condition that has limited his physical exercise for a while so is currently unfit. He’s just had a pacemaker fitted so now looking forward to getting fit again. He’s not overweight at all and the advice from his doctor was to take it easy for a while to build up his fitness slowly, so he’s pootling along canal paths and tracks on his MTB for a while before he start to ramp up the intensity.

As soon as you start to stress a heart that is not used to it anything can happen. Who knows what potential medical condition is lurking in the background. So better off taking it easy to begin with. A bit boring I know, but blasting yourself from the outset isn’t necessarily the best thing.

They are a great enabler.

My Dad is 71, still working and active, but could do with losing weight.

He had an old Raleigh which he would wheel out for a short pootle.

However, he now has a Felt Dual e fs.  Most days he is out and doing 20+ miles round places he went as a kid.  And totally delighted.  There is a group of old lads who live in the same village, all with ebikes and the ebikes are allowing them all to get out and do decent rides plus enjoying the socializing aspect.