Election Campaign

Serious question. – what is class identity?
I am a long term Labour voter (although that has got a lot harder) and I vote a particular way because I feel its the right thing for society as a whole.
I work in manufacturing but I feel no particular affiliation to some idea of the ‘downtrodden masses’ anymore than I feel antipathy for those who earn a lot more than me.

Don’t tell me your missing the good old days of the TU block vote? 😉
Should I mention electoral colleges?
Didn’t David(even more right wing then Ed) Milliband get more votes than Ed in the leadership election too?
🙄

Serious question. – what is class identity?

+1

According to the polls reported in the Observor this morning… some are showing the SNP winning every scottish seat. All the polls show them with 40+

I think, come May 8th, that a lot of people in Westminster are going to be bitterly regretting the arrogant, cynical and self-interested way they’ve dealt with the SNP thus far. It’s reality check time!

Also an interesting piece about a majority of what will remain of the Lib Dems blocking Clegg from going into another coalition with the Tories. Also, the right wing of the Tory party refusing to make concessions to the lib dems.

The assumption that there will be some kind of coalition come the 8th may is looking more and more doubtful. It’s going to be messy, unstable, and I think we’ll be back to the polls again before the end of the year. Though whether that will change anything….?

It’s being reported from senior Tories that, if Cameron gets more seats, he’s going to declare himself the winner even without a majority. Forcing Labour to go back on their repeated claims that it’s the largest party that gets to form the government, and having to vote down a Tory Queen’s Speech with SNP support.

Britain desperately needs a party which represents the interests of ordinary working people

See.. I don’t understand this idea that the interests of the rich are not those of the working classes. There is a lot of overlap. Businesses do well, and working classes do well at the same time. What is needed is a way of discouraging the rich businesses from becoming even richer at the expense of the workers.

In the old days, the problem was the same but had different roots. The coal had to be supplied, and the workers were the only ones who could do it. That’s not the case with service industries, they can be endlessly rearranged, exported or automated. So these days you have to make conditions favourable for big businesses or us workers will have nothing to do.

I think this is what new labour aimed to acknowledge. I think it was a pragmatic approach to the modern business world. I think the problem was one of execution not concept.

What we need most of all, more than anything tory or labour, is anti-Thatcherism.

Also an interesting piece about a majority of what will remain of the Lib Dems blocking Clegg from going into another coalition with the Tories. Also, the right wing of the Tory party refusing to make concessions to the lib dems.

It is extremely unlikely that the numbers will add up for another Conservative Liberal Democrat coalition so what LibDem or right-wing Tory MPs think is fairly academic imo.

I think a minority Labour government which dares the SNP to vote against it and risk a Tory government is quite feasible. If after a period of stability Labour struggles because of SNP or LibDem wrecking tactics it can call a general election.

With Miliband’s credentials as Prime Minister material hugely enhanced and the SNP portrayed as destructive and disruptive Labour could quite possibly expect a sufficient lift in support to secure a Commons majority.

The SNP needs to be extremely shrewd and play the game very carefully, they’re probably up for that. They certainly appear to have done an excellent job of wiping Labour out of Scotland.

So vote SNP and we all get the Conservatives. Thanks a bunch 🙁

How do you figure? Most seats doth not a majority make.

In fact Labour could make a coalition with either SNP, the Libs or the small parties (minus UKIP) and still come ahead of the Tories.

Simple fact is a vote for SNP is a vote for SNP. I’d rather vote for someone else but tbh I have little choice in my constituency and I’ll be damned if I’m letting the Labour incumbent back in (totally useless and keeps mouthing off about devolved issues whilst doing nothing for us at national level) or the usual Lib Dem first timer who knows nothing about the area they supposedly represent.

I think a minority Labour government which dares the SNP to vote against it and risk a Tory government is quite feasible

Now I may be being hopelessly naive here but would it not best serve the SNP to vote on the issues rather than for party political power games?

They could be seen as the honest and upright party, which they seem to like, and they would also be able to ensure stuff they like goes through and stuff they don’t gets stopped. Who needs a coalition? Isn’t it also more democratic that way?

molgrips – Member

Now I may be being hopelessly naive here but would it not best serve the SNP to vote on the issues rather than for party political power games?
They could be seen as the honest and upright party, which they seem to like, and they would also be able to ensure stuff they like goes through and stuff they don’t gets stopped. Who needs a coalition? Isn’t it also more democratic that way?

UK party politics is not democratic in its truest sense. There are very few free votes. Nearly all MPs are under the party whip, therefore vote how they are instructed to. Which may not be in the “MP representing their constituents” best interests.

Politics is all about power for the individual MPs, that at all costs, if that happens to be representative of their constituents views then it was a happy accident and nothing more.

@ernie interesting post and I agree wholeheartedly re the SNP. I think Labour represents a more modern type of working person than do you.

@futon, yes I have said from the start vote SNP get Conservative.

FWIW I think the outside chance result is a Tory majority, I still believe they will form another coalition or possibly minority government

I don’t understand this idea that the interests of the rich are not those of the working classes…Businesses do well, and working classes do well at the same time.

Not necessarily at the same time, and certainly not in the same degree. In reality, the change in the value of wages and capital move in different directions at different times.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/jan/31/real-wages-falling-longest-period-ons-record
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/markets/9196093/Graphic-50-years-of-the-FTSE-All-Share-index.html

BTW, “class consciousness” may be a more useful way to think about the question than “class identity”.

@ernie interesting post and I agree wholeheartedly re the SNP. I think Labour represents a more modern type of working person than do you.

All the evidence suggests that Scots very strongly disagree with your assessment jambalaya. Of course we will know for certain on Friday morning but it would very much appear that a majority of Scots agree with me and no longer see Labour as representing ordinary working people.

It is extremely unlikely that the numbers will add up for another Conservative Liberal Democrat coalition so what LibDem or right-wing Tory MPs think is fairly academic imo.

I’m just going to put my only contribution into this thread here…

I sense the faint whiff of ’92 about this year’s election, even with all the distraction from SNP/UKIP etc. In fact Ive put my money where my mouth is and bet with Ladbrokes at 5/1 that there will be a Tory majority on Friday.

It will be humbling to see just how wrong Ive got that when I come back into this thread on Saturday 😉

futon river crossing – Member
So vote SNP and we all get the Conservatives. Thanks a bunch

No, England votes Conservative and we all get the Conservatives.

Same as it ever was.

Ed Milliband is Moses and I claim my 5 shekels.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/03/ed-miliband-sets-promises-in-stone

it would very much appear that a majority of Scots agree with me and no longer see Labour as representing ordinary working people.

hmm, careful with the extrapolation there I think, Labour share of the vote in 2010 was only 42% and the recent poll sees that dropping to 20% – a quick check of previous elections says that Labour have never had a simple majority of votes cast, so I would suggest it’s Arguable that the majority of Scots have never seen Labour as representing ordinary working people.

You could probably say a majority of Scottish Labour voters agreed with you though.

Lib dems are the biggest losers here (proportionately) going from 18.9% to about 5%, while it looks like the conservatives may actually slightly increase thrir vote share 😛

5/1 that there will be a Tory majority on Friday.

You woz robbed, odds too short, personally can’t see it, they need to be winning Labour facing marginals to achieve that and there is no indication they are achieving that. I can see wins of maybe 15 LibDem seats, but they would still need 8 more Labour seats.

Ive put my money where my mouth is and bet with Ladbrokes at 5/1 that there will be a Tory majority on Friday.

I believe that for the Tories to have a majority they need to have about an eight point lead over Labour. Generally opinion polls are up to about 3% out, to be two or three times that amount out would represent the greatest disaster for the pollsters since ’92.

The problem in ’92 was the “shy Tory factor”, let’s face it voting Tory is a dirty and rather disgusting activity best done on your own in a polling booth with the curtains firmly closed and no one looking. So it’s hardly surprising that some people feel embarrassed by their dirty little secret and are reluctant to publicly confess.

However since an inquiry held by the pollsters in ’92 the methodology has changed and the shy Tory factor is now taken into account. In the last couple of decades the polls have been remarkably accurate, iirc NOP predicted the 2010 general election exactly – to the precise percentage.

I hope you didn’t put more than a tenner Stoner otherwise I fear you might well have to readjust your budget and buy cheap food for a couple weeks or so.

England Britain votes Conservative and we all get the Conservatives.

Ed Milliband is Moses and I claim my 5 shekels.

Ed’s monolith can’t stand up without support. Which is beautifully symbolic of a Labour government 😀

No, England votes Conservative and we all get the Conservatives.
Same as it ever was.

England votes Labour and we all get Labour

@ernie, IMO Scotland are voting SNP primarily for independence/referendum related reasons, it’s nothing to do with Labour representing working people or not.

No, England votes Conservative and we all get the Conservatives.
Same as it ever was.

Eh? We have a documented, proven case – 1964 – where Scottish MPs have turned what would have been a Conservative government into a Labour one, and 2010 when we ended up with a coalition rather than conservative government because of Scottish Mp’s

So its really not the same as it ever was, is it?

@ernie, IMO Scotland are voting SNP primarily for independence/referendum related reasons, it’s nothing to do with Labour representing working people or not.

Much as I’d love that to be the case, I don’t think it’s true. Various polls have shown support for independence has grown a bit, but it’s still a couple of % less than 50% probably. What we’re seeing is a continuation of the way the SNP took over from Labour at Holyrood, the referendum (and more importantly its aftermath) might have hastened that but it’s been a trend that’s been happening for a while.

Your opinion (Jambalaya) would be wrong then. I know a lot of people voting for them because there is nobody else to vote for.

Tories have screwed the country.
Labour screwed it before them.
Libs will sell out their principles for a shot with the big boys.

There is nobody else standing that we can hope to represent a leftward leaning view that has a chance of getting in. I’m under no pretence that SNP are actually leftist (at least not as a whole, I’m sure the same cannot be said for factions within) as opposed to populist but that is the point; they are giving us what we ask for, nobody else is.

Of course there comes a point where those concessions need to be paid for and we are seeing the cost already. Am I happy? No but do I trust anyone else to deliver? Even less likely. Criticise all you like but they really are the best of a bad bunch by a fair margin, at least they pretend to be leftist rather than joining a circle-jerk to the bottom that the other three are busy sweating over.

I’m a normal working person and the Conservative’s policies are better for me in almost every way – go figure

robowns – Member
I’m a normal working person and the Conservative’s policies are better for me in almost every way – go figure

They’re better for me too, but they are not better for the weak and vulnerable. In fact they’re disgusting IMO.

@ernie, IMO Scotland are voting SNP primarily for independence/referendum related reasons

So now you’re accusing the Scottish people of being stupid and not knowing the difference between an independence referendum and a general election.

Assuming that you are correct what do you put this sudden surge in favour of independence down to ? All recent opinion polls in Scotland put the SNP above 45%.

I would be interested in knowing why you think independence now has greater support in Scotland than it had 6 months ago. And how that squares with your pro-unionist stance.

From the New Statesman, some perspective on the real nature of the SNP

Like true vanguardists, the self-styled ‘45’ decided to set democracy and majority opinion aside and behave as if they were real voice of Scotland. Their pledge that the referendum would be a “once in a generation” event was immediately ditched in a frenzy of debate about how soon a rerun could be engineered and what ruses would be needed to secure a different outcome. Everything the SNP does is now framed with that solitary objective in mind.

The effect has been to foster a dominant attitude that is highly sectarian and trending towards totalitarian. There is only one truth and one way to be authentically Scottish – the nationalist way. Anyone who disagrees with this is, as one SNP parliamentary candidate put it, the moral equivalent of a Nazi collaborator. There is no space for pluralism and honest compromise with a movement in this state of mind. The normal rules of democratic conduct don’t apply because it answers to destiny alone. When Nicola Sturgeon says that she wants to help the Labour Party, she does so in the same spirit that Lenin once advised his British followers support the Labour Party of Arthur Henderson: “as the rope supports a hanged man”.

The SNP’s progressive credentials don’t, in any case, stand up to serious scrutiny. When Sturgeon was asked at her manifesto launch to name a redistributive policy enacted by the SNP in Holyrood, she was unable to cite a single example. There has been plenty of middle class welfarism, but no effective measures to reduce inequality or poverty. Indeed, the SNP in power has resembled nothing as much as New Labour in its pomp, combining the worst reflexes of authoritarian statism and market liberalism with a superior, “we know best” attitude that brooks no opposition.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/04/if-you-think-snp-are-left-wing-force-think-again

Be careful what you vote and wish for! It’s not always what it seems. 😉

THM, someone’s opinion is not proof.

teamhurtmore – Member
From the New Statesman, some perspective on the real nature of the SNP…

Mmm, do you expect us to believe there would be a very objective piece from the rabidly SNP hating Labour NS?

…The SNP’s progressive credentials don’t, in any case, stand up to serious scrutiny…

Maybe not from the twittering classes of pseudosocialism, but the other parties would kill for a street turn out like this in any town. But of course Scottish voters are stupid, eh?

The only thing that is going to save Labour’s arse in Scotland on Thursday, is when the dead rise from their graves and lodge their postal votes.

Indeed, it isn’t.

Like the opinion that the SNP is left wing or good for Britain. The proof is in the testing and the facts speak for themselves. How many progressive policies exactly, how many poor folk in tertiary education exactly….the list goes on!

The ends justify the means and at least the ends are clear.

You can make you own views on the stupidly or otherwise epic. The best test and place to start is to compare rhetoric with reality. You soon get a quick indication.

THM,in my opinion,the Conservative party fails your test too.

teamhurtmore – Member

…Like the opinion that the SNP is left wing or good for Britain…

I don’t care about whether it has left or right ideology.

I do care about whether it tries to protect the weak and vulnerable, and of course that it continues to push for independence now that Home Rule looks like a lost cause. It tries to do both, not perfectly, but it tries.

When Nicola Sturgeon says that she wants to help the Labour Party, she does so in the same spirit that Lenin once advised his British followers support the Labour Party of Arthur Henderson: “as the rope supports a hanged man”.

To be fair it was always on that basis that I previously supported the Labour Party. The problem is that I recognise when a corpse is dead and the stench coming from it suggests that it’s time to bury it.

If you read Lenin’s critique of the Labour Party you will see that he very strongly argues that everything possible should be done to help it achieve power. Because once in power they would eventually expose themselves to be just another bourgeois and reactionary party and betray the trust placed upon them. Hence the support Labour like a rope supports a hanged man comment. Despite making the comment nearly a hundred years ago Lenin wasn’t far wrong.

Sadly imo this leads to the ridiculous situation where the Morning Star still unconditionally supports the Labour Party, instead of accepting that it’s time to cut down the corpse and bury it. Mind you their argument is based on the claim that today the Tories have an agenda which is so right-wing that no matter how bad Labour are everything possible has to done to help them achieve power. That to be fair is a powerful argument and I struggle to argue against it.

THM,in my opinion,the Conservative party fails your test too.

Indeed it does – take austerity, what austerity, for instance. The Tories continue to spend more than they earn and that is austerity! Well be calling non-taxes, taxes soon (bedrooms anyone?). Spending more that you earn is so terribly RW isn’t it even the poster girl used to do it!!!

Anyway take a look at income inequality under the dreadfully Tories and the progressive SNP and let’s see under which the lowest paid have done better. And then..

I do care about whether it tries to protect the weak and vulnerable, and of course that it continues to push for independence now that Home Rule looks like a lost cause. It tries to do both, not perfectly

One of those is certainly true despite the once in a generation promise. Speak no evil…..or should that be EVEL!! 😉

I do care about whether it tries to protect the weak and vulnerable

FFS I hate this soft-left bleeding heart bollox. **** the weak and vulnerable. No one should be weak and vulnerable. I don’t want to live in a society where we have to protect the weak and vulnerable. I want to live in a society where no one is weak and vulnerable.

EDIT : For me being left-wing is about empowering people, not protecting them.

As a matter of interest, in England does this happen in your town when Cameron or Milliband come visiting?

BTW I don’t mean do the Scots turn up, I mean do Tory or Labour supporters turn up. 🙂

No they are not allowed to fly nationalist flags – people mistake them for the EDL 😉

EDIT : For me being left-wing is about empowering people, not protecting them.

With jobs??

Crikey Ernie, you are beginning to sound like a Tory boy. 😉