E-Livid

A KTM electric dirt bike has 11,000 watts. An e-bike has 250, plus whatever the rider can do. That’s not even vaguely comparable in terms of damage.

But we both know there are more powerful e-bikes around that have more than 250w available..

Which was this: “Simple truth is the more power you stick through the rear wheel the more potential you have to create damage.

I think you’re taking it all a bit Daily Mail to be honest.

I was being facetious with my comments, but there are plenty of XC racers & other riders who can comfortably put out more watts than Mr Average on their e-bike, even in full beans mode.

Same sort of vein as the quicker rider carving a turn.

there are more powerful e-bikes around that have more than 250w available..

yes, but they would be illegal to ride on bridleways etc as they aren’t legally bicycles – same as the KTM.

clearly enforcement of the > 250w thing is trickier than ‘no internal combustion’ engines but arguing that an illegal vehicle damaging trails is a reason to ban legal ones is a potentially dangerous move for all wheeled traffic…

I think you’re taking it all a bit Daily Mail to be honest.

How?

By caring about the trails I ride, how I leave them & not wanting to mess it up for others?

I call it being considerate.

But we both know there are more powerful e-bikes around that have more than 250w available.

As chapaking said on the last page, they’re illegal to ride on bridleways. Same as a dirt bike. Or a tank. There is already a law in place to prevent people using them. And even so 1,000w ? 16,000w (about 15 horsepower apparently). In fact, it doesn’t even equal 1 horsepower. And horses are allowed on bridleways. So, no, they aren’t going to trash the trails, even if they were allowed on there. Which they’re not.

yes, but they would be illegal to ride on bridleways etc as they aren’t legally bicycles – same as the KTM.

clearly enforcement of the > 250w thing is trickier than ‘no internal combustion’ engines but arguing that an illegal vehicle damaging trails is a reason to ban legal ones is a potentially dangerous move for all wheeled traffic…

Where did I say ban??

All I’ve said is be considerate!

In case you missed it this is what I said:

By all means ride whatever kind of MTB you like but do please try to do it in a way that isn’t going to mess up things up for whoever comes along next..

So, no, they aren’t going to trash the trails, even if they were allowed on there. Which they’re not.

Things being illegal don’t seem to stop some folks..

Where did I say ban??

All I’ve said is be considerate!

Things being illegal don’t seem to stop some folks..

And I don’t think anyone is suggesting that riding considerately is a bad idea.

But since it’s just as easy to be inconsiderate and damaging to an equal measure on a non-e-bike then it means your issue is with inconsiderate riders, not the type of bike they are riding.

You’re (intentionally or otherwise) equating ‘ebike’ with ‘inconsiderate’ and that’s what is getting people’s back up.

There is no evidence to suggest that using an ebike makes considerate people ride inconsiderately. And there’s probably none suggesting that inconsiderate people likely to suddenly start to use them, which kind makes the whole argument a bit theoretical and lacking in merit.

Your core point of ‘people should ride considerately’ is a good one, it’s just that that is more a point about people, not ebikes.

mrlebowski – Member

What you have highlighted is the fact that folks:

A. Can’t see that.
B. Don’t care.
C. Haven’t realised.

D- know that wear is part of what we do regardless of what we ride, and think that this isn’t so different. And probably others. It’s not such a good idea, trying to tell other people what they think.

Northwind – D- know that wear is part of what we do regardless of what we ride, and think that this isn’t so different. And probably others. It’s not such a good idea, trying to tell other people what they think.

Add to that, they dont understand about how power deilivery works and how its going to be very hard to roost something on an ebike anything like how you roost on a motorbike.

And how a smooth e-assist bike will help stop people losing traction as they have a more constant momentum and reduce spinning their pure pedal powered wheel.

reading the e-bike article in this months mag the e-bike was the only one that delivered the power in a way that didn’t cause the back wheel to spin.

That’s my point.

You’re (intentionally or otherwise) equating ‘ebike’ with ‘inconsiderate’ and that’s what is getting people’s back up

That’s a connection you’ve made, not I.

What I said was:

“Simple truth is the more power you stick through the rear wheel the more potential you have to create damage. If you doubt that have a look at the roost a dirt bike can throw out……& there are without doubt some pretty meaty e-bikes around..”

Certainly in the US there’s concern about the impact e-bikes will have on access & I know land managers here in the UK are watching the situation too.

Currently, as I understand, there are no problems (there or here). I hope it stays that way.

My only hope is that, like when ever anything new is introduced to a working system, is that it’s done responsibly.

I’m sure one day my ass will be sat on an e-bike!
(But hopefully that day is a long way off……………)

That’s my point.

sorry, your post appeared after I started typing – we were making the same point.

mrlebowski – the ‘potential’ to cause trail damage is not a result of the type of bicycle being ridden but about the way it’s being ridden. Also, your apparent reluctance to see that not all e-bikes are ‘e-bikes in law’ seems to be making this unnecessarily complicated.

he ‘potential’ to cause trail damage is not a result of the type of bicycle being ridden but about the way it’s being ridden. Also, your apparent reluctance to see that not all e-bikes are ‘e-bikes in law’ seems to be making this unnecessarily complicated.

I’m not reluctant to see it, because legal & illegal e-bikes get ridden in the same places ergo it makes sense to lump them together sadly… denying that fact could be construed in the same way you suggest I am ignoring your position.

which takes us back to the point that it might end up being just considered easier to ban all two wheeled vehicles – ‘they’re all the same’

Lumping people together is not a fair comparison.

By that logic mtbing should be banned due to riders using footpaths and building illegal trails.

which takes us back to the point that it might end up being just considered easier to ban all two wheeled vehicles – ‘they’re all the same’

It’s not easy is it.

Don’t get me wrong – I’ve nothing against e-bikes & some of the stories you can read about mates who can now ride together & old boys getting out again are heart warming..

I’m just concerned that we might be adding fuel to the fire of user conflict & I’d ask everyone to be aware of that. I’m not saying that’s so but it does concern me a little..

banned

Nobody has mentioned banning anyone – have a read!

Nobody has mentioned banning anyone – have a read!

The post above mine.

The post above mine.

I think you’ve missed the context it was posted in..

Nobody has opined that e-bikes should be banned – certainly not I nor the poster of that comment..

What i’m saying is that we can’t just lump all e-bikers into one category. If we do, we are no better than the red socks brigade that want us mtbers out of “their” countryside.

There will always be a small majority that don’t have respect, and others shouldn’t suffer for it.

“No healthy person is getting an e-bike because they’ve reached the limit of how far & fast they can go on their un-assisted bike!”

Except ME

but then you seem to know what everyone’s thoughts and decisions are

I’m waiting for a carbon-fibre, 6″ travel full-sus e-bike with a gearbox, with space for a 200mm dropper so my wife can fit on it for family rides. I’ll be able to fit so many more descents in with the motor to assist me back up the hills and along the joining XC bits. And unless everyone else has bought one I’ll use my unpowered bike for the group rides – and have fresher legs and more strength from manhandling the e-bike downhill.

The only issue is cost and space!

but then you seem to know what everyone’s thoughts and decisions are

not everyone’s, but yours – yes. 🙂

Well I’m about the same age and lost
Some mojo and incentive. I bought a high end ebike.

So… not because you couldn’t possibly ride a non-assisted bike any faster then. 🙄

Interesting to note that 4th and 5th on that segment (times done yesterday) were both on ebikes according to their rides.

Well there were 11 of us out on them 🙂

Just watch how badly this set of A-holes are cutting up the trails 🙄

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/not2bad-free-online-premiere-2016.html

Oh, hai guys!

I see the haters have come up with new and interesting arguments against ebikes?

Oh wait, no they haven’t.

It’s your opinion that all e bikes are mopeds? It’s my opinion I should be able to do a five knuckle shuffle on the bus but, like it does with you, the law disagrees with me. So we are both equally wrong.

Roosting/damage to trails. I’ve tried to do a ‘burnout/roost’ on my levo, front brake on and put as much power through the pedals as I can muster, plus the full 250w fury from the motor. Nothing, even on loose gravel

In power terms, comparing a legal ebike to a 5-16Kw electric motorbike is like comparing a nerf gun to a .44 Magnum with people representing the trail and the effect the respective items have on them

Legal ebikes can be matched in power by people so if these unfit people were actually fit people, they’d be putting the same output out anyway.

Legal ebikes can go over 15.5mph. But the rider or gravity have to provide the power. Just like those pesky push irons….

Not cycling? You turn the pedals and the bike goes forward, just like those pesk…. You get the idea

I’m all for banning illegal ebikes, ban them all…. Oh, hang on, they already are banned.

What have I missed?

That everyone riding an ebike is apparently lazy, much lazier than they would be if they weren’t cycling, and the fact that they’re are lazy impacts on EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US.

Oh, wait…

Oh, and apparently they crash into ramblers. All the time.

Ban gazelles!!!

And as a different opinion as a young fit guy who can hold his own in races on many disaplines I bought an e cargo biketo arrive places not sweaty to arrive with the ability to carry a serious load to not climb hills at 4mph …….to f a serious alternative o using my van for trivial journeys .

As recovery rides after races where I need to arrive at work at a specified time and be some use.

Its just another form of cycling . I have no doubt in my mind I can travel faster on my other bikes which I do for about 80% of my cycle journeys but the ability to ride in non bike clothes or shoes and not need a shower at the other end far outstrips the arriving 10minutes earlier effect of riding my road bike.

But blinkers on – e bikes are bad mmmmkay

What have I missed?

That they’re not bicycles?

We all like different things though so thats fine.

That they’re not bicycles?

The law disagrees.

vehicle with two wheels in tandem, usually propelled by pedals connected to the rear wheel by a chain, and having handlebars for steering and a saddlelike seat. verb (used without object), bicycled, bicycling. … to ship or transport directly by bicycle or other means

Dictionary.com disagrees Wilburt.

legally they are bicycles at 250w and 16 mph cutoff.

Furthermore, they can only assist when the wheels are moving and the rider is pedalling

The law is like that to encourage less than fit types out of their cars and on to two wheels for short jouneys which is fine. You’re manipulating that law to allow use powered bikes for another purpose.

I think the concern is that countryside access for bicycles is tenious enough already, using powered bikes and hiding a legal loophole strengthens the case against access for anyone.

Using them to record Strava times is just bad form, that stuff is important to lots of people, it motivates them to get fit. Your denying them that service.

I can see an argument for exception to give people with a disability access to the countryside but scanning this thread that doesnt seem to be how theyre predominantly used.

Using them to record Strava times is just bad form, that stuff is important to lots of people, it motivates them to get fit. Your denying them that service.

My strava times are irrelevant apart from my own times to beat, plus some of my friends. To get to the stage where you can get top 10’s on segements (with a reasonable number of people who’ve tried it anyway) you’re likely to be going faster than 15-16mph anyway.

Strava – if you are that upset that someone is using an ebike to get better times my only suggestion is “get a life”

Its not a loophole in the law – the law is perfectly clear.

I think the concern is that countryside access for bicycles is tenious enough already,

We’ve been through this at least twice on this thread alone. How does a bicycle going at a speed most bicycles are perfectly capable of meeting pose a problem for countryside access?

Also, if you weren’t so lazy that you didn’t read the whole thread (and apparently it’s the ebikers that’re lazy…), you’ll note that simondbarnes set his ride to private so his KOM doesn’t show and he’s not had any impact on anyone else’s fun.

But I can see how your argument fits into Theresa May’s Britain. Make all the disabled people wear arm bands so they won’t get prosecuted for harmlessly using a wealthy landowner’s estate, scan the teeth of any child refugees who look a bit rough, make firms announce whether they employ nasty forins or not…

I would heartily recommend that anyone that starts reading the thread here, doesn’t bother with a recap, unless you are in for the troll, a haterz or whatever the opposite of that is. I also have failed to climb Jacobs ladder, but I haven’t tried it on an e-bike. I also recall a dim and distant MBR where Nick Craig made it, but the key then seemed to be letting most of his air out of the tyres. Seems things move on.