Don’t stop until you stop

Looking out my class window while teaching titrations to S4 pupils. Watched an older gent fall down. 5 minutes later we’re performing CPR with ambulance call handler counting to compression timing. She was very good. Ambulance arrived promptly but he was very blue and agonal breaths.

I then had to chat with his friends and explain that they’d done their absolute best and maybe a seat and sweet tea would be an idea.

All in all an exciting morning.Last I heard he’d been in resus for 2 1/2 hours.

My N5s also now understand concordant titre results.

Fingers crossed for a good outcome.

Well done.

Well done, onehundredthidiot. You did what society hopes/expects of you.

However I have mixed feelings on this. If I’m the older gent who falls down I hope you’re not looking out of the window. Saving people is all very well but for what quality of life after? A family member died recently, a year and a half after their time was up. The 18 months extra A&E gave them was spent between homes, home carers and hospital beds, unable to walk or do anything much for themselves and with memory issues.  A huge stress for another family member. Thankfully second time around the paperwork was in place to call a halt to the medics and let the poor person go.

The family experience reconciled me with the failure to “save” a cyclist I saw roll off the road and fall off his bike. I hadn’t really come to terms with the outcome despite the other person present and working with me on the guy being a nurse. If we’d saved that guy what would his life have become? As it was he died riding his bike which given the kit was soemthing he was passionate about – what better way to go?

Outstanding, well done. – good luck to the older gent.

If I’m the older gent who falls down I hope you’re not looking out of the window. Saving people is all very well but for what quality of life after?

WT actual F?

If we’d saved that guy what would his life have become?

You don’t know – that’s the reason to save him. IMO if you know the quality of life afterwards is going to be terrible that’s when you get into the morality questions – if you see someone injured who might well make a full recovery then who are you to deny that?

However I have mixed feelings on this.

I don’t. You did a great deed, well done.

We’ll see how it turns out. I’m just glad it happened where it did. He’d ridden in on an ebike about 10miles on country roads.  If it’d happened earlier he might have been lost for days or been across the carriageway on a blind bend.

However I have mixed feelings on this.

There’s some utter tripe posted on here now and again by certain people but this takes the biscuit.

You need to give your head a wobble.

@onehundredthidiot you and your pupils did a great thing. We need more people who can and are willing to get on with CPR in situations like this.

WT actual F?

It’s not hard to understand. If I have a massive stroke I want to die and I don’t want someone to save me.

onehundredthidot did well, everyone on the thread agrees, including me. I wonder what the victim’s view will be if he survives. If they then have a high quality of life they’ll probably be very thankful, a poor quality of life less so, having nappies changed four times a day, pain, being put in a frame to be moved, halucinating, memory AWOL – even less so.

Oh, the words make sense – I’m just a bit gobsmacked that, within minutes of posting about what must have been a hugely traumatising experience of seeing someone keel over and then miraculously keeping them sufficiently ticking over for the emergency services to have a genuine shot at keeping them alive, I’m just gobsmacked that anyone’s first public thought could be “you might have made the wrong decision there”.

“you might have made the wrong decision there”.

That is not what I said, could you remove the quotes please.

A very good friend of mine died of a heart attack whilst riding his bike alone. I’d like to think if someone had seen him collapse they’d have given him the chance.

I must commend your dedication to teaching.  Would appear to be unusual to be teaching the curriculum on the next to last day of term.  Everyone else seems to be putting films on.

That is not what I said, could you remove the quotes please.

No chance.

Great job! mince pie earned. The importance of CPR, must do a refresher as I’ve forgotten a bit. Here’s to a swift recovery!

@Edukator can only assume you walk around with a DNR wrist tag, very odd view & pretty mindless that you can simply apply judgement like that. No circumstances are the same.

“Don’t stop until you stop” is the thread little. The nurse I was with stopped. She was talking about the time we’d taken at each stage and his chances of brain damage/survival and the time for defibrilation had gone. Sure you hear about the young surfer who is saved after someone does CPR while another runs a couple of km and back for a defibrilateur and shocks after 20mins but most outcomes aren’t good. Google it, I did and realised how low our chaces were.

https://heart.bmj.com/content/109/18/1344

@wwpaddler I’m head of department and I’ve asked all my teachers to teach until the end of today. Some did fun skills based experiments, some did normal lessons. Bah and indeed….humbug.

@Edukator a stranger is someone’s loved one. Would you do nothing if it were someone you cared about even if it was  a 50:50 on full recovery or limited life?

Have a lovely festive period everyone, it’s time for a break.

Well done. It’s very easy to think “oh, well someone else will do something.”

What’s S4 and N5?

That is not what I said

That’s as may be, but it’s what it sounded like you were implying.

I’d do something, onehundredthidiot. I did in fact. I have been talking about my own attitude to myself. Anyhow I don’t have the choice, French law says non assistance à pesonne en danger is illegal. I have a legal obligation to act. However if I keel over with a stroke I’d rather there wasn’t anyone around to save me. Suicide is legal here BTW.

That’s as may be, but it’s what it sounded like you were implying.

Just read what I actually type. I’m not implying anything. My posts are crystal clear, just read them for what they are and avoid joining the putting words in people’s mouths types that use the tactic to be obnoxious..

Suicide is not a crime in the UK either. But that’s irrelevant because this wasn’t a case of attempted suicide.

I don’t see the point of speculating the possible outcomes of the person surviving when they are in a life threatening situation, saving their lives is all that counts, not speculation.

They might have been in an unhappy marriage ffs, does that come into the equation when deciding whether to help someone close to death?

My posts are crystal clear

Yes you said that you have, quote, “mixed feelings”.

If it isn’t mixed feelings about whether the OP did the right thing what have you actually got mixed feelings about?

Well, even by our usual low standards we’ve managed to completely ruin the OPs post.

Well done OP. Take time for yourself after this, can’t have been nice to deal with.

The OP worked hard on a near the knuckle problem that many would probably fluff, and I hope there’s a good outcome.

On the other issue, I think he’s talking about his own resuscitation really, and whether one agrees with @Edukator or not, it’s worth recognising many do.

Both my parents signed DNR statements and had copies sent to me, my sister and my brother.

That bloody “ignore” function can’t come soon enough.

OP, if it was me that keeled over, I hope I’d have someone like you on the scene. You did good.

What’s S4 and N5?

4th year of senior (high) school in Scotland.  N5 is Scottish equivalent of GCSE (ish)

You’re a very clever idiot, idiot. Well done. An example to the youngsters you teach.

I must commend your dedication to teaching. Would appear to be unusual to be teaching the curriculum on the next to last day of term. Everyone else seems to be putting films on.

What if the curriculum is just watching films, do you break out the integral calculus textbooks for a treat for the last couple of days?

well done OP.

to save a life is, to me, one of the greatest things someone could do.

If we’d saved that guy what would his life have become?

You don’t know, neither does anyone else, and it’s nobody’s business to make any decisions other than the medical specialists gifted with the skills and knowledge to make the attempt.
The staff at Southmead Hospital fought hard to try to save my partner’s life, after she suffered what turned out to be a stroke, and turned her life support off two days later. She suffered from depression, and frequently had suicidal thoughts, so I guess she achieved what she desired, but I’ll be damned if I’d ever, for one second, consider that no attempt should have been made to save her life, and I will go to my grave knowing the right thing was done by her.

@onehundrethidiot good drills mate.

As to the musing:

Well done Onehundredthegoodguy.

I am curious if your school has a defrib?

There is no debate here (aswell as it absolutely not being the place for one). You don’t ask the question you can’t answer you give that person the chance to get proper help from people who have the knowledge.

You just have to try and ignore the bellénde, he thinks he’s clever and thought provoking whilst making every effort to prove he’s not.

Amazing role reversal in this thread as we’ve found out that onehundredthitiot is actually an educator, and Edukator is definitely a **** idiot.

I’m not sure anyone learned tgat in this thread alone.

I kind of agree with Educator, but now’s not the time…the op did the right thing, he helped. He did his best. Well done op.

@wwpaddler I’m head of department and I’ve asked all my teachers to teach until the end of today. Some did fun skills based experiments, some did normal lessons. Bah and indeed….humbug.

Meanwhile the English department were on mass showing Home Alone and saying they were going to analyse the story….why is it always the science department left teaching.

Physics is fun, now shut up sit down and get your calculator out!

Thoroughly well done op.

I’m just off to work where I’ll see a colleague that had a cardiac arrest in the car park after doing couch to 5k. People like you stepped in and he survived (despite the ambulance taking ages). He had heart surgery, got fit and has since gone on to complete an Ironman.

People can survive and go on to have normal lives. If nobody starts CPR they don’t survive.

Any other debate should be another time in a separate thread.

Well done to the OP.its what we would all hope we would do in those circumstances.

To be fair to Edukator he did immediately congratulate the OP… then as ever he made it about himself and gave us his opinions..

The issue in these circumstances is that you don’t have time to think. You just act and hope for the best. Once again.. Well done to the OP..

I actually agree with some of what Edukator wrote having seen personally some of the issues he raised up close but it wasn’t the time or place to post it.

As someone that frequently deals with the aftermath of out of hospital cardiac arrest (OOHCA) I find Edukator’s views quite alarming. There’s definitely a place for resus discussions and as a society we should be prepared to discuss it, but FFS in this scenario there’s no doubt.

If a man is out for a stroll they almost certainly have some physiological reserve. Yes, the stats for survival (including with good neurological recovery) are low, but they’re not zero. Frail people who never go outside are a different matter, but that’s not what’s being discussed here. A small minority of otherwise healthy people won’t want resuscitation but you can leave that up to the hospital staff who can access records and speak to family. Without medical training and a bit of information you simply can’t make that decision.

For what it’s worth, I applaud your work Mr Idiot. I’m sorry that the psychological trauma of having to do it was compounded by the tone deaf discussions here.