Does "Barry Knows Best?"

Have to say a few of the comments on here remind me of the reaction to the Article 50 judgement from people who don’t understand what’s going on and thought the courts were “trying to overturn the result” etc. I think it’s important if you feel strongly about it to read the court report and make an effort to understand the basis on which the instructor was found to be liable and why that doesn’t mean that people won’t be able to instruct other people in activities carrying inherent risks in the future. It’s not helpful to rage against the system, the court or indeed the claimant just because you don’t agree with the end result.

Is there a link to the court report?
My question is whether they’re making a judgement on something they actually understand or not.

There ses to be a lot of decisions made that affect mountain biking made by people who have no understanding of it.

I could get some liability insurance tomorrow and go out and charge people £80 a pop to teach them to ride. I would have no idea what I’m doing. This isn’t a war on riding, it’s a highly specific judgement on one person’s lack of care for a beginner who was relying on (and paying for) his expertise. It will hopefully help make MTB courses safer in the future and that’s a good thing for everybody involved in the industry.

I could get some liability insurance tomorrow and go out and charge people £80 a pop to teach them to ride. I would have no idea what I’m doing.

Could you? I would have thought the cover was conditional on having the right qualifications…

instructor but had “a tendency to be over-optimistic” about the ability of some of those he taught, and that he had not sought to assess the skill levels of members of the group beforehand.

I wonder what came out that enabled “tendency” to be used?

So according to the court, a more “skilled” instructor would prevent someone falling off their bike.

er, i think you’ll find Gravity will have something to say about that……..

I think you will find that a skilled teacher can actually teach you to ride things rather than just let you crash repeatedly due to gravity

We crash because we have a skill confidence interface- in this case one encouraged/80% caused by a “overzealous” instructor – not because gravity exists.

I could get some liability insurance tomorrow and go out and charge people £80 a pop to teach them to ride.

Unless you have a qualification or can otherwise evidence your competence, I doubt this very much.

As well as the potential for premiums across the market, I suspect that what instructors / coaches might see is more demands from insurers to demonstrate competence (either via a piece of paper, or other evidence), safe systems of work (e.g. robust assessment of student abilities) etc. None of which is a bad thing (apart from the premiums bit).

Where you might see a change in activity levels is the less “instructed” scenarios where someone is leading a ride, but not instructing or coaching – I’m thinking of things like shop rides where the business’s insurer might well already stipulate that their public liability doesn’t cover, and the shop is relying on a “at your own risk” disclaimer – the thought of a £3M liability might change the attitude to risk and some may well conclude that it’s not worth it.

I’ve always thought that such activities look like quite a risk – as others have said disclaimers won’t absolve culpability for negligence and if a business publicises a ride as “official” there could be a strong case for there being a duty of care towards participants which, if I was an LBS owner, I wouldn’t want to be tested in the high court.

It may end reasonable priced instruction. Insurance is almost always available if you pay the set premium. It may be that the premiums are so high or the level of excess so high that none of us want to pay the price of instruction to cover this. Signing forms saying you accept its a dangerous sport etc I do not think are relevant to negligence. Its a sad case on both sides. I hope the instructor’s insurance covers all the loss.

Onzadog – Member

Is there a link to the court report?
My question is whether they’re making a judgement on something they actually understand or not

I assume they’ll have called ‘expert witnesses’ (IANAL maybe not right phrase’) to provide context/explanation etc. I know a guy that was called to provide independant assesmsent and explanation for a case he had nothing to do with in a different minority sport accident that went to court.

Is there a link to the court report?
My question is whether they’re making a judgement on something they actually understand or not

This is unclear, not enough details on evidence presented and witnesses called.

So not really possible to say if it’s a fair judgement or not.

What evidence was there to support the implication that the instructor was careless?

Could well get overturned on appeal if it’s not robust.

I think you will find that a skilled teacher can actually teach you to ride things

I thought he hit “a clumpy, grassy piece of ground”. Taught? To ride that?
Yeah, drop-offs, jumps, wood bridges… but bits of grass, just shows it was a freak accident.

Chapaking – that he did not find out beforehand the level of skill of the trainees was one, the other ( more dubious IMO) that he encouraged the trainee to ride a section he had crashed on but faster this time

to ride a section he had crashed on

Did he crash the first time? I thought he just went the wrong way.

that he did not find out beforehand the level of skill of the trainees was one

And this is the only bit in the report that’s a definite black mark.

No problem with the ruling myself if the instructor was negligent – I’m sure it happens – but I’d like to see the full evidence that was put to the court.

that he did not find out beforehand the level of skill of the trainees was one

I posted something on the original road.cc article about this – the rider described himself as “an experienced cyclist, but a novice on rough terrain and descents”.

Experience is an extremely subjective thing to assess. I’m an “experienced” MTBer in as much as I used to race XC at a reaosnably high level, done numerous 24hr events etc but if you put me on some narrow North Shore 6ft up in the trees, I’d cry.

Years ago we had a rider turn up to our club MTB ride having told us by email that she was an “experienced cyclist”; it very quickly became apparent that she was incapable of riding on anything other than flat gravel tracks and on closer questioning, she admitted that she had only ever ridden bikes at the gym – but she thought that 3x a week on a static bike meant she was “experienced”.

Problem is that on the forms that you fill in pre-coaching, you have to state your level of experience and most people (especially men) usually overestimate it which may give the instructor a false impression of ability.
The coaching course I did, they got people riding round a small fixed loop including a short descent, short climb, couple of corners etc while the Chief Instructor and his Assistants watched us and made notes, then made the assessment of the tuition that we needed in conjunction with the info we’d filled in on our forms.

(no idea if that happened in this case, was more arguing the “experience” side of things. Inexperienced people are often too inexperienced to actually know that they’re crap!

From the original article – “a mountain biker of 12 years’ experience”

+”A novice rider”

+”He had been riding a mountain bike for several years”

But, some really relevant* mentions of: “Mr Ahmed “educated and articulate” and “not a thrill seeker”. Before the accident he went to the gym three or four times a week and played cricket on a Sunday.”

*sarcasm

You can’t find out a riders skill level beforehand. You can ask, but you can’t tell what they’re capable of until you’ve seen them on a bike.

The coaching course I did, they got people riding round a small fixed loop including a short descent, short climb, couple of corners etc while the Chief Instructor and his Assistants watched us and made notes, then made the assessment of the tuition that we needed in conjunction with the info we’d filled in on our forms.

thats the key bit – do this or an equivalent you will be fine.

Also, if this instructor was at fault due to slap-dash instructing, a gung-ho nature etc, why has he only had one person injured on his lessons?

Also, if this instructor was at fault due to slap-dash instructing, a gung-ho nature etc, why has he only had one person injured on his lessons?

Luck?

Luck?

Exactly! (the bad kind)

I think you will find that a skilled teacher can actually teach you to ride things

I thought he hit “a clumpy, grassy piece of ground”. Taught? To ride that?
Yeah, drop-offs, jumps, wood bridges… but bits of grass, just shows it was a freak accident.What are you on about?
Perhaps the help he needed was to pick the correct line and avoid the clumpy grass thing.
Teaching is either effective or ineffective but clearly it works if they are competent and the student listens. Heck I bet I could teach you to do critical thinking and construct a cogent argument with enough time.

why has he only had one person injured on his lessons?

Is this true or just a guess? Genuine question

Some pretty nasty stuff being said on Facebook. We don’t know the full case representations only a few one lines put out by journalists. Unless we know how can we really form an opinion? Or do we always fill voids with opinions?

Unless we know how can we really form an opinion? Or do we always fill voids with opinions?

This is STW, we don’t need those pesky facts to get in the way of an opinion!

Is this true or just a guess? Genuine question

Well, you know – as part of a case about an negligent cycling coach, it might have been mentioned if there were any others…

This is STW, we don’t need those pesky facts to get in the way of an opinion!
Rather like this court case then!

I guess all instructors will be recording all of their sessions from now on…just in case they need to prove something was said, or not said, instructed etc

I think it is irrelevant trying to find blame here. Ultimately, someone has to pay for the guy’s care and needs and it’s easier for organisations/insurance companies to do this than individuals.

I feel bad for the guy who got hurt.

But the world just got a bit more red tape and risk averse and a little bit more nannied as a result.

You can bet your boots courses are gonna get more expensive as trainers will have to insure themselves up to the hilt .Feels like another bit of american style blame culture to me

I do some work taking a portable pump track and features like see saws, skinnies and jumps too schools and event and our insurance goes up markedly every year. It went up quite a lot when local authorities started insisting on ten million for public liability cover. Also there’s not much choice out there. Increased insurance costs may be what stops us. If I was to start guiding or tuition the insurance costs would make me think twice, unless I knew my BC membership had me covered but I’d be reluctant to trust that alone.

Just a thought… Its a potential risk of MTBing(cycling), maybe we as riders should take out private medical insurance on an annual type policy. We all do it when we’re off to the Alps for a week, so why not have it for your uplift days/trail center days/local trail gnar days/commuting. How many self employed STWers have lost income due to MTB related injury? maybe it’d cover that too.

Congratulations thread on making hora look the most sensible person here.

Some really quite silly comments on here – I particularly love the ones questioning whether the judges/jury understand mountain biking. I have news for you – judges and lawyers can’t be experts on everything, which is why they have expert witnesses. I suspect the insurance company faced with a multi-million payout might have found themselves an expert witness, but maybe they couldn’t be bothered?

I’m fairly experienced (not skilled) so I’m probably a prime candidate for skills training.

With an instructor you have to listen, trust and believe otherwise how do you learn? Put yourself into their hands.

If I take tuition should I hold back abit?

On my first ever driving lesson my instructor had me driving on a 50mph dual carriageway (A580/A6 in Salford) on a wet winters evening. I turned to him and said ‘don’t take this the wrong way but do you know what you are doing’? The instructor laughed and said I was a natural talent behind the wheel’. What if I then panicked with cars suddenly passing me and crashed at 50 on the sweeponv/dropping lanes?

A really tricky situation and hard for the instructor and aweful for the customer.

Let’s not forget it’s the insurers who pay out. Not the instructor. He walks out of court and carries on with life no matter how wronged he may feel.

The customer gets slagged off and name called.

Going back to cycling tuition – what if the instructor feels I can do doubles and should. Should I? (There’s one instructor who has a nack of getting non doubles riders to do them isn’t there).

What if you came up short and hurt yourself ? Your fault or shared percentage liability?

Ponder that last line.

ithout knowing the full court case its hard to make an assement, however this decision does feel odd

Hypothetical situation..

I book a session with Jedi as I want to learn how to jump better. I tell him I’m not confident on Doubles, and its an area I want to work on.

Jedi starts me off slow, building up on small tables before encouraging me to take on a gap. I’m a bit reluctant but he tells me I’m ready. I then proceed to smash myself to bits a I get it all wrong…

Could I then turn round and blame Jedi as he encouraged me to have a go. Of course not…it ws my decision to have a go, and I am accutely aware that mountainbiking has its risks.

If instructors are faced with getting sued everytime they try to tech someone to get better (and lets face it most times when you learn something new you are out your comfort zone, otherwise you wouldn’t need coaching in the first place) then I can quickly see them thinking its not really worth the effort.

The case in question involves a guy who clearly wanted to get better on his bike, improving will always involve risks. I’m surprised he wasn’t asked to sign some kind of waiver before hand..

In the above example Jedi doesn’t really encourage you to do things, you just eeem to do them! He doesn’t push you to do stuff, he just makes you feel ready and capable!

Anyway…
Someone above mentioned this instructor has only had one injury? How do we know this? He’s only had one serious claim that’s made the press, surely. That’s the only thing we can say.

A few recent Facebook comments:
I hope he gets run over by a bus
And
He deserves to be paralysed if he’s that type of person.

Wtf.

On my first ever driving lesson my instructor had me driving on a 50mph dual carriageway (A580/A6 in Salford) on a wet winters evening. I turned to him and said ‘don’t take this the wrong way but do you know what you are doing’? The instructor laughed and said I was a natural talent behind the wheel’.

This is pure gold, love it 😀

Funny isn’t it 😉 When I passed he lent me one of his mini coopers and I bought another from him a month later.

Pretty disgusted by the “MTB” community being represented on the Facebook thread. 😡