doctors on strike

The ACAS statement is a bit light on detail, but my initial thoughts are:

Good points:
Enshrining whistleblowing protection in the contract
Protected time off after 3 (or is it 4) night shifts
Some attempt to redress the gender/less than full time imbalance

Bad points:
Guardian still isn’t independent of the Trusts it will be supposedly investigating
Lack of pay progression for at least half of the time that someone is a junior doctor will still unfairly disadvantage women/less than full time trainees
Lack of safeguards for “non resident on call” trainees regarding working after a night shift
Out of hours payments will still hit the specialties that already have trouble recruiting the worst, exacerbating rota gaps

I will await the publication of the full contract with interest (and, despite what JH says, will again read every page of it before making up my mind about it).

One thing to note – this contract will be staying no matter what the vote of BMA members says. Results of the JD ballot will be due on 6 July; even if they/we reject it, there won’t be enough time to amend it before the start of August. So this is it, like it or lump it.

going to have a knock on effect for the rest of the NHS.

Consultants next, then AfC staff, I’m sure.

Consultants next, then AfC staff, I’m sure.

Yup but there’s another biggy in the background too. Hunt failed on his promise to review Ambulance staff within a year.

To be fair to Mefty it would appear that the ACAS brokered agreement, whilst obviously a compromise (as all ACAS brokered agreements are) represents a very significant victory for the BMA/junior doctors.

It shows what can be achieved through unity and determination. It vindicates the BMA/junior doctors and proves that they were right to go on strike.

With that in mind I would expect the Tories to put the best possible spin on the situation, you can’t realistically expect them to do otherwise.

FS are doing more and more medical calls, supposed to be cardiac only but more and more it’s minor stuff. It’s ambulance control that are being less than truthful when contacting our control. How long before the government impose this on the FS and it becomes a dual role.

It’s ambulance control that are being less than truthful when contacting our control.

They can only go on the information received, that’ll be in the very few seconds of a call.

Hmm. Yeah right! Like when we go to assist gaining entry and they’re not in attendance yet. We get there and they stand down ambulance.

It’s all about fudging attendance times IMHO.

One thing to note – this contract will be staying no matter what the vote of BMA members says.

My understanding is that the ACAS brokered agreement requires no more industrial action and BMA membership approval.

I didn’t think that bits of the agreement could be ignored.

Or diverted the ambulance to an R1 or R2 call.

Maybe at times they get it wrong but we get sent to calls that are never how they sound on regular occurrence.

To be fair to Mefty

Why he wont return to the thread 😛

Drac – Moderator
I’ll take a read as this is going to have a knock on effect for the rest of the NHS.

Whatever the result of the Junior Doctor’s contract negotiations, Hunt was always going to come after someone else next.

Fully supportive of my Junior Doctor colleagues in their fight against our clueless ‘leader’, standing by for us nurses to be targeted next.

Whatever the result of the Junior Doctor’s contract negotiations, Hunt was always going to come after someone else next.

I know.

Whatever the result of the Junior Doctor’s contract negotiations, Hunt was always going to come after someone else next.

I would have thought that the result of the Junior Doctor’s contract negotiations will have a profound affect on other healthcare professionals and the NHS.

A significant defeat for Hunt rather than an easy victory is obviously going to make him recognise his limitations. It will also provide lessons to other healthcare professionals with regards to what can and can’t be achieved.

Much of the future of the NHS hinges on the junior doctor’s dispute. imo

😥

The public are behind you and grateful for all you do in the face of adversity sometimes even from the very public you are trying to serve

As always THANKS to you all every last one of you.

+1

Well done ACAS!! Two sides who test the patience of most observers, finally strike a deal. About bloody time!

Love the spin ^ and the counter claims of spin.

Who won? No one. Same money, spent differently. As before some loses, some winners.

Hopefully (!) better cover at the weekend AND better pay for those working at the weekend – not that it’s anything to do with pay obviously!

Edit: time for both sides to prove their worth now and show that the actual winners really are the patients! We shall see….

WOW the Doctors won so well even THM could not spin as a victory for the tories 😉

Two sides who test the patience of most observers

JUSt not true the majority always supported the Drs

Good work doctors.

Well I have been in the pub, very nice local bitter that I could smell being brewed when I did the school run, if you are interested – I posted in reaction to Christopher Cook’s twitter feed, who is the BBC Newsnight correspondent. His conclusions paraphrased.

standing by for us nurses to be targeted next.

I’m pretty sure Nurses unsociable hours are already similar (but not identical) the new ones for junior docs. So Nurses have already been targeted at some point.

Who ‘won’?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-36327930

I would have thought that the result of the Junior Doctor’s contract negotiations will have a profound affect on other healthcare professionals and the NHS.
A significant defeat for Hunt rather than an easy victory is obviously going to make him recognise his limitations. It will also provide lessons to other healthcare professionals with regards to what can and can’t be achieved.
Much of the future of the NHS hinges on the junior doctor’s dispute. imo

Ernie – Whilst I understand what you’re saying, I’m not so sure what the Junior Doctors have managed and how they did it can be easily be used as a template for the rest of us, least of all us nurses.

Unfortunately, whilst many of my colleagues and I fully supported the Junior Doctors, when the topic of “would you go out on strike if/when they come for us” is raised many respond “oh no, I couldn’t strike, it’s not fair on the patients”.

No matter how much you explain how worsening conditions for staff, leading to staff leaving and struggles to recruit replacements, will have a far graver impact on patients in the long-term I still often hear “I still couldn’t strike”.

Part of the problem is likely staff being split among two very different unions and one of them in particular seemingly more interested in doing the government’s bidding for them than truly standing up for its members (the RCN).

Mr Hunt likely knows that many nurses have no stomach for strike action, given the amount who make very public statements of this on various forums etc that nurses use. I’m sick of seeing nurses beat down their colleagues with comments such as “well you obviously don’t care for your patients if you can contemplate striking”, but these types of remarks are not unusual.

TBH the proof of the pudding’s going to be in enforcement and execution, the TOIL thing in particular looks like trouble waiting to happen- getting approval not straightforward and staffing already inadequate so you can almost guarantee that doctors will struggle to reclaim it. Without a straightforward claim process and the capacity to convert to holidays or pay it’s got to be a concern. And who guards the guardians?

The defnition of night shift I thought is almost funny. Start before 8pm, and it’s not a night shift, even if you start at 7.30pm and work til 8.30am, apparently.

Well I have been in the pub

Did you do the full Cameron or did you manage to get home with all your children?

mefty lamest Edinburgh defence for ages.

mefty – Member

I posted in reaction to Christopher Cook’s twitter feed, who is the BBC Newsnight correspondent. His conclusions paraphrased.

Don’t forget to mention Christopher Cook is a former special adviser to a Tory government minister.

Bloody left wing biased BBC

UK needs a proper grown up discussion about health provision in this country, what we’ve got doesn’t work and more money isn’t going to fix it.

At least this is sorted, could have been months ago

Don’t forget to mention Christopher Cook is a former special adviser to a Tory government minister.

I didn’t know that – but it appears he denies it, says he merely helped Willetts write “the Pinch”, which is apparently quite good – Willetts is a pretty straight guy – as a result not very effective. Cook was the journalist who exposed Gove’s use of private email, so he is certainly not completely partisan, if at all.

mefty lamest Edinburgh defence for ages.

I think the Edinburgh defence relies on one saying you were joking – I wasn’t I was just reporting what a journalist who follows the area closely said on his Twitter feed as he analysed it – have a look yourself link

Did you do the full Cameron or did you manage to get home with all your children?

I don’t take my daughter to the pub in the week, you watch too much Shameless.

jambalaya – Member

At least this is sorted, could have been months ago

Is this the first time that I’ve heard you criticize a Tory government jambalaya? I think it might be.

But you’re right of course…….all that strike action and inconvenience it caused wouldn’t have been necessary.

On the plus side, junior doctors have been radicalised in a way which wouldn’t have been possible without an industrial dispute.

I have heard many junior doctors speak at trade union organised meetings and I have been quite frankly impressed. For the first time in its history the BMA organised activities with other trade unions.

A trade union activist I know who went on a junior doctors demo said it was the “poshest” demo they had ever been on as many junior doctors apparently took their mums and dads along with them.

I suspect that for many junior doctors the experiences of the last few months will last them for the rest of their lives.

So as someone on the “radical left” I’m truly grateful to Jeremy Hunt for creating the conditions which have resulted in a more radical BMA, and the now recognition by many BMA members of the wider struggles.

OH god I hope the mighty white chariot of private enterprise and profit is ready in the wings to exploit the ill and needy.

I don’t take my daughter to the pub in the week

Interesting implication that I assume you did not mean

Can I play the edinburgh for my comment – it was not meant to
be a slight on your parenting it was just a joke. Apologies if it overstepped the mark it was not meant to be taken that way

No implication, just assumed that in Shameless they take their kids to the pub, I appreciate it was an attempt at a joke.

BLess you for only giving me a gentle smack with the olive branch you took from my hand.

Junior doctors split over deal with Jeremy Hunt to end contract dispute

Suggests it’s not a done deal.

Although considering Dr Malawana’s standing among junior doctors it would be surprising if his recommendation was rejected.

According to the link he says :

“I truly understand that people are scared and worried. I know there is fear and a hell of a lot of anger. I know that the government’s reaction to the contract this evening has not been helpful. Government needs political victories. However, wait for the contract details.”

BLess you for only giving me a gentle smack with the olive branch you took from my hand.

It just wasn’t very funny in my view – but humour is like that – not really an issue, just sometimes it doesn’t work, but I certainly didn’t take any offence, very rarely do, but I should have said that in my earlier post.

Tiny point
re: “and more money isn’t going to fix it”

You obviously mean “a little more money isn’t going to fix it”

Since a load more would allow us to buy our way out of the PFI schemes and start training enough nurses instead of asset stripping the rest of the planet of badly needed health care staff.

Would allow the NHS to set up its own I.T. development house instead of paying £11.5 billion to CSC for a piece of vaporware.

Would allow GPs to spend more than 5mins with patients.

Would allow us to bring cleaning, catering, portering, estates, pathology, CSSD, Xray diagnosis & I.T. Depts etc back in house with proper training, career progression, standards & pride.

Would stop troubled teenagers being reverse auctioned off to private care providers often 100s of miles away from their families.

Would allow community trusts to properly resource community hospitals, reopen closed wards and allow them to start admitting patients from the Acute hospitals and freeing up the A&E logjams.

Would allow the NHS to recruit some proper substantive Chief Execs & D.o.Fs instead of having them in post shorter than a football manager & in thrall to american management consultants doing their “stint” in England as the next step on their respective corporate ladders.

P.S Labour were worse & money makes everything better (as long as its not spent on vanity projects – looking at you Blair & Lumley)

Rant over… Done me some good… As does reading your stuff, for the LOLZ

Tiny point

Very good but you missed the rather large elephant in the room, ie, the EU.

Many of those excellent points which you have made will be unachievable due to EU competition directives.

A point which is shared by Dr David Owen :

EU referendum: Owen says Leave vote will help reverse NHS competition

Now I don’t have the slightest respect for Lord Owen a former Labour cabinet minister who considerably helped Thatcher win a general election by forming a breakaway political party to fight Labour.

But it is extremely pertinent that this analysis should come from him when you consider that one of his principle reasons for leaving the Labour Party and forming a rival party was Labour’s policy of withdrawal from the EEC. This man is not a natural anti-European, far from it. And he is of course a former GP.

So to fix the problem I would suggest “more money and withdrawal from the EU”.

Unless you think private healthcare providers are the solution.

“Unless you think private healthcare providers are the solution.”

It would certainly solve the problem of 42 page squabbles about it on STW.

So to fix the problem I would suggest “more money and withdrawal from the EU”.

Conveniently missing the obvious contradiction in that position.

Lots of stepping back to the future going on at the moment – welcoming back “the struggle” comrades here and a return to isolationism/narrow minded xenophobia on the Europe referendum thread. Do we never learn?

To the tune of the red flag: “We’ll keep the union flag flying high…” a very odd mix.

Still in the winners v losers core part of the show, the Guardian seems to be going a little off-piste

But the BMA was on Wednesday night facing a growing backlash from junior doctors furious at what some called “a sellout” and “a joke”. Dr Manish Verma said: “It doesn’t seem like an improved deal. It’s the BMA’s turn for propaganda to try and sell this as a good deal. Looking at the Acas document there seems to have been lots of areas where we have conceded. It’s unclear where we have gained anything.” Others, though, predicted that trainee medics would back the deal reluctantly due to fatigue after eight days of strikes.

Dr Will Rook, a junior doctor in general medicine, said the new deal was worse than its predecessor, which the BMA rejected in February. “It hasn’t addressed a lot of the concerns I had in the first place around trying to spread a five-day service over seven days without having extra people to do the job. It also appears to further devalue our work-life balance. A 10% supplement for working one in two weekends a month is a joke. The disruption it causes is immense”, Rook said.

“What do we want….?”

“Dr Will Rook, a junior doctor in general medicine, said the new deal was worse than its predecessor, which the BMA rejected in February.”

Alan Johnson was saying on This Week that as a union leader you can be sure that once you strike the deal you get will never be better than the ‘pre-strike’ deal. He said strikes only work as a threat. Had the ring of truth and he should know.

So to fix the problem I would suggest “more money and withdrawal from the EU”.

Unless you think private healthcare providers are the solution.
It’s my view the health service needs much more, not just the £8bn the Tories promised which the NHS said they need just to stand still. My view is giving the current NHS more money will improve nothing, we saw under Labour when they gave GPs substantially more money and new contracts the service got worse. We need a proper adult conversation how best to provide world class health services (we are far from those now) and how those should be funded. A better more integrated mix between private and state is the answer imho, thats how it works elsewhere