doctors on strike

They are not open to seeing how health services are delivered elsewhere

The arguments are not convincing and, despite your obvious annoyance, the British public absolutely adore the NHS as it is.

Its not that we wont listen its that the arguments are crap and “appreciated” only by the most right wing of people, on STW or in the real world.
emotive soundbites like “not open” serve only to highlight the paucity of your rationale.

Especially given that Jamba’s failed to address the core issue at the heart of the current strike.

Especially given that Jamba’s failed to address the core issue at the heart of the current strike.

The issue around rhis strike and its resoltion one way or another it an irrelevance to the future of the nhs imo. I honestly don’t care how its resolved. It’s not the big picture issue.

JY after my mum was in agony and virtually imobile for 6 months as a result of being ignored by her GP she and my father certainly don’t adore the NHS. Pressure on it is a key reason they are voting Leave (lifelong Labour voters and both voted Yes to EEC in ’75). Many people rightly prasie the dedication of many NHS staff and specific areas of outstanding care but you are quite wrong to say they adore the service and you won’t hear many French, Germans, Belgians, Dutch, Swiss etc wanting to swap their service for ours. Americans regard the NHS as a total disaster.

The issue around rhis strike and its resoltion one way or another it an irrelevance to the future of the nhs imo. I honestly don’t care how its resolved. It’s not the big picture issue.

Given the topic under discussion – why are you posting?

Americans regard the NHS as a total disaster.

Is that right, aye?

Pressure on it is a key reason they are voting Leave

And how do they think leaving the EU will help the ‘pressure’ on the NHS?

Americans regard the NHS as a total disaster

Really?

you won’t hear many French, Germans, Belgians, Dutch, Swiss etc

In fact the rubbish (and expensive) health service is one of the major complaints Brits living in NL have – amply borne out by my personal experience.

And how do they think leaving the EU will help the ‘pressure’ on the NHS?

I suppose because the hospitals will no longer be full of queues of Bulgarians and their weird foreign diseases.

Or some such bolleaux.

Every single one of my American friends regard the NHS with envious eyes, whenever the subject of healthcare comes up i’m regaled with personal stories of how their healthcare provisions cut or refuse certain services on the grounds of cost etc.

More jambafacts.

Americans regard the NHS as a total disaster.

WTF??? 😯

Are you seriously offering Americans as some sort of experts on affordable healthcare ?

They spend double the amount of their GDP on healthcare than we do.

And the greatest cause of bankruptcy in the US is unpaid medical bills, approx 1.5-2 million every year.

Your straw clasping gets evermore bizarre jambalaya

An entertaining read

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/british-health-care-free-for-citizens-low-priced-for-visitors-is-that-the-whole-story/2014/03/24/7d0c3386-9e57-11e3-b8d8-94577ff66b28_story.html

@jambayla – what is the evidence that Americans see the NHS as a disaster?

My understanding is that if you have the money in the USA to pay for your health care then great. If, however, you don’t you’re screwed. I’ve seen shocking documentaries showing how poor people have to queue in their hundreds ,for hours during the middle of the night, in the hope of have a free consultation with a doctor.

Although, I wonder if you’d think that if they tried harder to earn some money that they would not be poor, so actually it’s their fault anyway….

what is the evidence that Americans see the NHS as a disaster?

Well at the moment, the NHS doesn’t make anyone filthy, stinking rich. For a multi billion pound effort that is absolutely criminal and thankfully our mate JH is going to fix that.

For a bit of light relief, Frankie Boyle’s take on it –

Jeremy Hunt doesn’t understand the NHS

SOMEAmericans regard the NHS as a total disaster.

Only the ones that want to see THEIR (not any) doctor now and have a friendly chat before being prescribed a nice big bottle of Vicodin.

Pressure on it is a key reason they are voting Leave

So its genetic then?

Many people rightly prasie the dedication of many NHS staff and specific areas of outstanding care but you are quite wrong to say they adore the service

Yes that will be why no one is supporting the doctors and their is such a populist movement to reform the NHS. Their is a fine line between trolling on here, having an opinion and just making things up that make folk point and laugh.

and you won’t hear many French, Germans, Belgians, Dutch, Swiss etc wanting to swap their service for ours. Americans regard the NHS as a total disaster

WTF does that have to do with what UK folk think about the NHS
let me tell you , even if your unsupported assertion is true , its **** all
Thanks for the non sequitur.

you cannot even type things that might actually prove the “point” you are trying to make 🙄

And it was not even funny 🙁

Americans regard the NHS as a total disaster

Definitely the yardstick by which any health service for all citizens should be measured
Ok that was moderately funny.

Americans regard the NHS as a total disaster

I don’t think that is true at all. I am resident in both UK and US and most doctors I have visited in the US have trained or worked in London at some point and are very complimentary about the NHS and how efficient it is. Most openly state that the US is very inefficient but your experience will be a million times nicer which is definitely my experience. The level of care actual medical competency between the two countries is comparable, the only thing in my view better in the USA is preventative care – having an annual physical for starters – but something that would bankrupt the NHS.

What is definitely common is the amount of BS that is spouted both in the US media about the NHS and the UK media about US hospitals. Pretty much both state that the other have people queuing outside and dying on hospital beds. It is not true. Like all things, don’t believe the BS in the media.

the British public absolutely adore the NHS as it is.

And that there is the big problem. No one likes change, people are scared of change. People also are belligerent when it comes to compromise. But like all big corporations, no matter what the industry, if they do not evolve and change to the changing environment around them they disappear. Simply sitting back with arms folded stating we like it as it is thanks and we won’t change simply is not an option, otherwise the beloved NHS (which we all love by the way) will disappear and the alternative will be something far worse by most accounts.

😆

An entertaining read

Very telling how insurance can ramp up the levels of bureaucracy… although that’s also been a consequence of Lansley’s byzantine ’12 HaSC Act. IMO, co-operation isn’t just necessary to get things done at the sharp end (in acute care) – it also helps to keep costs down.

I’ve just finished my shift – the (emergency surgical admissions) ward safely & calmly covered by consultants at all times, including the care of some very sick patients. From what I’ve heard today, the public are not swallowing DoH spin – even if they are equivocal about strike action. They grasp, all too readily, that patient safety will not be improved by stretching existing resources ever more thinly. And given existing gaps in acute rotas (in the very clinical specialities that will be penalised by contract imposition), Trust CEOs are going to have a major headache trying to make it work – not to mention the knock-on effects on training, etc.

It’s a shambles. But it’s a shambles that Hunt seems to want.

much larger study than the one hunt based his weekend death argument on

http://hsr.sagepub.com/content/early/2016/05/05/1355819616649630.full.pdf+html

Conclusions: There are fewer deaths following hospital admission at weekends. Higher mortality rates at weekends are
found only amongst the subset of patients who are admitted. The reduced availability of primary care services and the
higher Accident and Emergency admission threshold at weekends mean fewer and sicker patients are admitted at
weekends than during the week. Extending services in hospitals and in the community at weekends may increase the
number of emergency admissions and therefore lower mortality, but may not reduce the absolute number of deaths.

I saw an excellent talk today about big data in medicine and it touched on something that shows how fundamentally Hunt misunderstands medicine

http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/political/political-news/gps-diagnostic-skills-could-be-obsolete-within-20-years-says-hunt/20030142.fullarticle

They should go on all out strike by not giving anything away.

Demand all that they want.

Never give up and strike to the end.

Prolong and increase the strike to 3 days a week.

On top of that also go for wildcat strike and down tool during the peak hour …

Hunt misunderstands medicine

I think he knows how to ruin it then make money from the ruins

Good to see all those awful safety issues have been resolved by paying Doctors more to work weekends. The ones who don’t work many lose out to pay those who work loads.

What is the agreement that the Dr’s haven’t excepted yet?

I think it would be courageous to vote against – public support will evaporate.

But what is the offer?

BBC is a bit slow – picking up via Twitter but main issue is one outlined above.

If the offer on the table is just more £££ then they’d have to vote against given that money was a side issue (apparently).

have been resolved by paying Doctors more to work weekends.

That ^^ sounds like a classic piece of Tory misinformation.

Junior doctors didn’t ask for more money to work weekends, they were already receiving that. What they were objecting to, among other things, was the imposition of pay cuts for working weekends.

It would appear that the ACAS agreed proposition provides a comprise whereby only junior doctors working less that one weekend in eight will receive a pay cut.

http://www.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/g/6/Junior-doctors-contract-agreement-18-May-2016.pdf
Factual information for anyone who is interested…

Nice bit of Toryesque lying there mefty

From the BBC

the basic pay rise is to be reduced from 13.5% to between 10% and 11%
weekends will no longer be divided up between normal and unsocial hours, instead a system of supplements will be paid which depend on how many weekends a doctor works over the course of a year
extra pay for night shifts is to be reduced from 50% to 37%
extra support will be made available for doctors who take time out, such as women who go on maternity leave, to enable them to catch-up on their training and thus qualify for pay rises – after claims women were being unfairly penalised
junior doctors will get an enhanced role in advising and liaising with the independent guardians who keep an eye on the hours doctors work

A Tory thinking it was just about money and also getting something wrong
I am stunned by this revelation…who knew they were like this ?

mefty do you want to look at the ACAS document and see how much of it has changed, how it is about enshrining fines on excess hours, whistleblowing etc etc, and how it does still remain cost neutral overall, before you relay more rubbish straight from JHs nether regions?

Muppet 🙄

And despite Tory attempts to suggest otherwise it’s not just about unsocial hours pay, eg just to pluck one paragraph out of docrobster’s ACAS link :

An agreement that breaks can be taken flexibly during a shift, and should be evenly spaced where possible. How ever where breaks are combined the contract will make clear that this must be taken as near as possible to the middle of the shift. No break should be taken within an hour of the shift commencing or held over to be taken at the end of the shift.

It’s clear that safety considerations for patients and junior doctors featured very high.

So it was all about pay ……and safe rotas and maximum hours and training and speciality recruitment and whistleblowing to protect patients ? Why would the Drs or the public ever trust Hunt ?

Oh Mefty 🙁

The ACAS brokered agreement, which the BMA are happy with, actually reduces the proposed 14% basic pay increase down to between 10% and 11%.

Factual information for anyone who is interested…

Thank you that’s better than “I heard on Twitter”.

I’ll take a read as this is going to have a knock on effect for the rest of the NHS.