Diane Abbott on Any Questions.

I genuinely don’t know if ninfan is joking or not.

race to the bottom…

TMI 😉

Did I say immigration was ace? Just in case you didn’t hear me the first time it is. It’s not a one way street – and it’s made us all better people.

FFS – Brexit was not proposing to stop immigration, just stop uncontrolled immigration.

We have control over immigration from non-EU countries, does that mean there is no immigration from those countries – no.

It does however mean that the current immigration policy discriminates against non-EU countries, afterwards it will be fairer.

Plus, if needed we could control that immigration better, perhaps lowering economic immigration and accepting more actual refugees.

I’ve seen interviews with actual immigrants, or a few generations removed, hacked off that they had to pass restrictions whereas we let any tom, dick or harry in from the EU.

FFS – Brexit was not proposing to stop immigration, just stop uncontrolled immigration.

Do you suppose that all the Leavers appreciated that distinction, and that it was carefully spelled out by the campaign? The same campaign that made people believe that half of Turkey had packed their bags and boarded the night train from Istanbul. And that Syrian refugees were marchng en masses towards Essex.

It does however mean that the current immigration policy discriminates against non-EU countries, afterwards it will be fairer.

Really?

Even if that was the case, odd choice to control immigration against those who make the greatest contribution to the Uk economy. But par for the course with Brexit BS.

DrJ – dont descent to the Brexi level with you false facts. It was all 70m plus Turks. Keep up. 😉

Anway apart from Finns, what does Dianne think?

Do you suppose that all the Leavers appreciated that distinction

It’s pretty clear the many of the remainers don’t either – it seems to me that the depth of understanding about what they were voting on in either side is about the same.

Even if that was the case, odd choice to control immigration against those who make the greatest contribution to the Uk economy.

is that only because they outnumber immigration from the other countries ?

The breeder I got my last cat from works in the NHS and reckoned that standards had dropped with the bias to the EU countries – and who am I to argue.

It;s pretty clear the many of the remainers don’t either – it seems to me that the depth of understanding about what they were voting on in either side is about the same

Except that one side made it the central issue of their campaign and one side didn’t.

No its because not only do immigrants from the EU make a positive contribution to the Uk economy but they also make a greater contribution that non-EU immigrants.

Your breeder friend is not alone at blaming EU immigrants for the sins of the world.

Anyway might try and catch AQ on iplayer now.

And that Syrian refugees were marchng en masses towards Essex.

don’t think many people thought they were all refugees, which is the problem, especialy as a lot were probably just economic migrants.

Anyway, in the case where they are a lot of refugees from Syria, we should be able to put a brake on economic immigration from elsewhere in favour of syrian refugees.

First answer wouldn’t have gone far on Just a Minute – deviation from the off despite Dimbleby’s encouragement to answer the question on her specialist subject. And lots of repetition. Never before has hesitation (silence) been more appropriate.

I would like to see where you were abused for claiming immigration would be an election issue, which would be very different to you being challenged for your usual pot stirring anti immigration views.

Poster after poster said all this talk of immigration was just Daily Mail swivel eyed loony ukiper etc etc and that I was tryingbto say itbwas a serious issue and a cross party one was subject to ridicule and abuse.

I am pro migration, economic and social and pro asylum. It needs to be subject to control as it is in every country of the world except the EU

Immigration is ace. Makes this country more interesting. I’m sad to see it being more inward looking.

Agree with 1 and 2. Brexit will make us much more outward looking globally. Let’s have more Latin Americans, and Asians in the mix. In 100 years of close relations with India a country of a billion people i migrants from that nation rose to the most numerous in the UK. In less than 10 years of freedom of movement the Polish overtook them. That’s uncontrolled immigration, it is not balanced, it is not planned. The EU is about protectionism and narrowing it’s members outlook to focus inwards

Do you suppose that all the Leavers appreciated that distinction

No of course not but Remain failed to make the alternative argument. You know why I think they didn’t release lots of detailed data and anlysis on the benefit of EU migrants in particular in the last 10 years, its bevause far from being economically supportive it shows the opposite.

Syrian refugees. I believe those heading to Europe via Turkey/Greece about 30% are Syrian. That’s certainly the Germans experience.

You know why I think they didn’t release lots of detailed data and anlysis on the benefit of EU migrants in particular in the last 10 years, its bevause far from being economically supportive it shows the opposite.

Just imagine a breakdown between the economic impact of EU15, A8, A10 and A2 nationals…

“We need to be careful of that kind of rhetoric, because it’s not helpful. There is no earthly use in winding people up about immigrants and saying immigrants are driving down your wages, because it’s not true.

The subject of the thread.

I wonder which detailed economic arguments should have been employed to swing these guys over?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-37270519

Her comments on immigration seem perfectly reasonable

The after-work drinks are sexist question was more amusing!!

Ed Balls was quite entertaining on Marr today. As he said just because he disagrees with Corbyn doesn’t make him a Tory.

I suspect we’ll see a lot more of Diane, maybe she’ll take on additional departments / spokesperson duties as as daft as she is she is one of the best and most experienced Corbyn has. As per Marr again I have no doubt Chakrabati will have a Shadow Cabinet Job (as suggested by Marr Justice Secretary ?) once she has her Peerage.

Can people please stop playing divide and rule on this thread?

Poster after poster said all this talk of immigration was just Daily Mail swivel eyed loony ukiper etc etc and that I was tryingbto say itbwas a serious issue and a cross party one was subject to ridicule and abuse

.

So, no one attacked you for the claim that it was a serious issue, just that your stance was aligned with daily mail swivel eyed loons.

It needs to be subject to control as it is in every country of the world except the EU

Yeah, luckily we can strike deals with our friends the Aussies and the Kiwis, who would never ever enter into any kind of free movement type agreement

as it is in every country of the world except the EU

Israel has entirely free movement based purely on racial grounds.

Israel has entirely free movement based purely on racial grounds.

No they don’t.

The Law of Return (Hebrew: ???? ?????????, ?ok ha-shv?t) is Israeli legislation, passed on 5 July 1950, that gives Jews the right of return and the right to live in Israel and to gain Israeli citizenship.[1] In 1970, the right of entry and settlement was extended to people with one Jewish grandparent or people married to a Jew, although they were not considered Jewish under Jewish law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return#Applicability_of_the_law

If my facts are incorrect I am happy to be shown this and retract the point
I will require some evidence, what have you got?

Jews are not a race. Is that enough?

Jews are considered a race in the UK under the race relations act.

Have you any proof the Israelis dont consider Jews as a race?
I honestly dont know for certain,but i assume its a box you can tick on their census for race or some such, and i would be surprised if this were not the case there.

AGain i can be persuaded by proof. Have you any?

Either way the case remains they do have unrestricted immigration only for jews.

they do have unrestricted immigration

No they don’t!

an Oleh visa can be refused on the basis that the applicant

(1) is engaged in an activity directed against the Jewish people; or
(2) is likely to endanger public health or the security of the State.

Therefore its not unrestricted (and its worth pointing out that in the Brexit campaign, the right to refuse entry to EU nationals on a similar basis was clearly put forward as evidence that Britain did not have “uncontrolled borders”) so its impossible to claim that Israel’s immigration law, which has clear limitations, is unrestricted.

as it is in every country of the world except the EU

SO basically what you are saying is that it is just like the EU and my point was true and Jambys was false
Its rare for you to be so supportive 😉

FWIW you are correct that unrestricted was the wrong word given the points you raise but i think the broad point i am king* still stands and , STW aside you would accept the policies are actually broadly similar.

This is my monthly try at sensible debate BTW 😉

* one of my best typos so i left it
the broad point i am making for clarity

Jews are considered a race in the UK under the race relations act.

that is one of the biggest demonstrations of law-asshattery there is.

So I can change race by becoming a Jew – that really makes sense.

No its because not only do immigrants from the EU make a positive contribution to the Uk economy but they also make a greater contribution that non-EU immigrants.

that sounds a little bit racist.

So people from the EU, no matter their skill levels, contribute more than skilled people from non-EU people.

It seems it is really about ensuring a supply of cheap-as-chips labour ready to be exploited by companies is the real issue.

that sounds a little bit racist.

Take it as you will – its simple fact

So people from the EU, no matter their skill levels, contribute more than skilled people from non-EU people.

Economically yes – that is also a simple fact. So if you want “economic contribution’ to be part of the rationing process at least be sensible about it.

It seems it is really about ensuring a supply of cheap-as-chips labour ready to be exploited by companies is the real issue.

And politicians rely on that kind of false belief to peddle their more xenophobic and racist policies. For them the wider ignorance of the Great British (sic) public is bliss.

If my niebhour, an accountant moved in my house he would make a positive financial contribution and probably even cut the lawn now and then but he wont be getting an invite anytime aoon.

And politicians rely on that kind of false belief to peddle their more xenophobic and racist policies

so if it is false then you are saying that equally skilled people from non-EU countries are somehow deficient compared to those from EU countries.

Where are the numbers coming from to prove this ?

I am saying what I am saying:

Immigrants from the EU make a greater economic contribution to the UK than non-EU immigrants – spin it/re-phrase it how you like

Experts – which is why Brexiteers ignore them (at all our peril)

that sounds a little bit racist.

Facts cannot be racist they can be true or false

THM is NOT a racist anyone who reads his posts can tell that[NOT SARCASM he is not a racist]

So I can change race by becoming a Jew – that really makes sense.

Indeed. But I think the idea is still that Jews are protected by race relations law AS THOUGH they were a race.

Having said that I saw it argued on an Internet forum that Jews are for example over susceptible to some congenital heart problems indicating a shared heredity – call it race if you want. Probably I got the details wrong but that was the gist.

So, no one attacked you for the claim that it was a serious issue, just that your stance was aligned with daily mail swivel eyed loons.

I got plenty of personal abuse as well as derision for suggesting immigration was a real issue better tackled now before it turned into something much worse. Well nothing much was done and we’ve had a racially motivated murder, we are out of the EU and immigration is a much bigger issue politcally including in particular for the Labour party whose head in the sand approach is particularly damaging for them. Posters here seemed to be of the view that immigration meant UKIP and UKIP would hurt the Tories so all jolly good. Now I am happy we are out of the EU but those Remainer should look back and count the cost to their EU desires of not taking it seriously and not making a better job of arguing the case for uncontrolled EU migration.

Jew/Jewish is both a religion and a race.

Israel was created as the Jewish homeland. Israel has used the same definition of Jewishness for the right to live there and have citizenship as the German’s used to send Jews to concentration camps, namley at least one Jewish grandparent.

that is one of the biggest demonstrations of law-asshattery there is.

So I can change race by becoming a Jew – that really makes sense.
I think the problem is at some point race, culture and religion all blend together so what we have is a Venn Diagram rather than absolutes

I also think it highly unlikely the Jewish diaspora do not view themself as a racial group and all the RW would be going mental if a corbynista said this

Teamhurtmore is definitely not a racist

I got plenty of personal abuse as well as derision for suggesting immigration was a real issue better tackled now before it turned into something much worse. Well nothing much was done and we’ve had a racially motivated murder

I think most observers would view the murder of an EU immigrant atthe hands of the natives as an issue more likely caused by the rabble rousing re immigration of which you were rightly accused and derided.
There is nothing you wont blame on immigration even their death at the hands of racists 😯

“After the Brexit vote it has got worse – I have seen people change – it is hard at the moment.”

Brother of the victim

Your thinking is a wonder to behold- to constantly get things this wrong surely requires effort.