David Turner’s View on E-Bikes

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  • David Turner’s View on E-Bikes
  • Premier Icon rone
    Subscriber

    (who is he ?)

    That in itself is hilarious.

    Mr Turner just delivered for me two CX bikes whilst on holiday in the USA. They are superb.

    Okay he’s not kept up with the big brands but his bikes have a legacy.

    We own six between us.

    Shane he’s not in the UK any longer.

    greyspoke
    Member

    I disagree with the “people will want more” argument.  Aside from the legal constraints in the EU, there is the weight issue.  A lot of the riding I do, and would like to continue to do, involves lifting bikes over gates/fences and pushing up lumpy stuff.  A current e-bike would be a right pain there (I’ve tried one).  If someone would make a lighter less powerful one, 100w would be ample, I would be seriously interested.

    Premier Icon cokie
    Subscriber

    I have zero issues with them providing the users are sensible, but then this applies to all bikes, electric or not.

    Lots of people mention physical abilities, but what about mental? There’s lots of riders, some supported on here even, who suffer from mental health which can often lead to not wanting to head out on the bike. A physical cycle challenge isn’t always constructive when you’re struggling to get out of bed. I’ve seen people get out and overcome mental health because ebikes make it that bit easier. It gets them further out and seeing more whilst still spinning those legs and raising their heart rate. It lets them socialise and meet people whilst staying in a comfort zone. The NHS encourage walking as exercise- for certain people an e-bike is walking instead of jogging. It’s still fitness.  Long term I could see fantastic benefits for those with mental health.

    The sense of well being from just being in nature is huge. A bike let’s you get into the thick of nature. No cars, no human activity, no noise. There was that great article in STW about not racing everywhere and actually taking time to soak it all in. E-bikes is another avenue for people to do this.

    The fat & lazy comments don’t wash with me. You can apply that to anything in life. Can you honestly say that you have never taking the ‘fat & lazy’ route? Have you never ordered a take away? Did you refit your new kitchen? Have you ever had your car washed by someone else? People priorities their time and energy into different things in life. As long as it’s not hurting anyone, crack on! I put a lot of my effort into volunteering. Late nights, weekends gone. I can’t always find time to fit in my local loops. An e-bike would make that possible.

    I’ve been out riding every other evening in this heat. I’ve been passed by about 10 ebike in the last week (ridden by the whole spectrum of riders). You know what I thought? It wasn’t ‘you lazy fat ***********’. It was ‘that looks mega’!
    I was boiling up, cramping and running out of water. It was a suffer fest and I started not to enjoy my local loop. I would love to have one for days like that. Days I want to cover ground without torturing myself. Days I want to take in nature and not keep my head down. It’s in addition to, not instead of for me. Still, you’d see me on a trail and call me names (on the internet). No consideration for any of the above. Just label all users the same.

    I’m a fit mid/late-twenties rider. I race various disciplines and push myself hard.

    Dave Turner = luddite

    Premier Icon singlespeedstu
    Subscriber

    I really don’t get the fear some people seem to have of ebikes.

    No one is forcing anyone to ride one.

    I’ve been out on mine twice this week.

    Also just been out on my hardtail and tomorrow I’ll probably ride one of my full sussers.

    I just see it as something else to ride if the mood takes me.

    What I chose to ride has nothing to do with anyone else.

    Premier Icon jameso
    Subscriber

    Well said cokie, good post.

    geex
    Member

    Stu nailed it.

    Who cares if some American boy on a CX bike doesn’t like Ebikes?

    Met my first ever decent sized group of riders entirely on emtbs down the valley yesterday. Blethered to them exactly the same as I did every other rider or group I met. (I’m just like that) Offered them advice on how best to get to the trails they were interested in riding. All very normal indeed. No other cyclists were harmed.

    Baffles me why folk lose their shit over a battery powered motor assist

    Premier Icon jamj1974
    Subscriber

    I have zero issues with them providing the users are sensible, but then this applies to all bikes, electric or not.

    I agree.  I also agree that lowering the bar for entry to a physical activity that is good for mental health is also good.  I am one of those riders on here who has experienced mental health issues, I am open about this and the importance of cycling to my wellbeing.  I have also been the person who struggles to get out.  However, in my experience the actual effort expended when on the bike is a key element that gives me benefit.

    The sense of well being from just being in nature is huge. A bike let’s you get into the thick of nature.

    Yep, it does – but guess what, you can do that walking as well.  If you really want to soak up nature as the primary element – nothing beats walking.

    No cars, no human activity, no noise. There was that great article in STW about not racing everywhere and actually taking time to soak it all in. E-bikes is another avenue for people to do this.

    Part of the being somewhere quiet is that they are often quiet because of the effort it takes to get there…  Look at the noise, congestion and inconsiderate behaviour near any beauty spot accessible by road.  If places become too easy to access – they become more crowded and noisy.

    The fat & lazy comments don’t wash with me.

    That’s ok.  You don’t have to accept them.  Ride over any well used trail centre and you will see it – unless you have all the visual acuity of Ray Charles. I’m not saying people should not ride on e-bikes or that people who are overweight should not use them either.  What I am saying is that e-bikes are being used because some people using them don’t wish to expend energy.  The amount of people blasting past on climbs in turbo and clearly only completing 1 lap of a 14km trail suggests they might be a bit, just a bit averse to expending energy.

    Let me also be really clear on this.  I AM FAT MYSELF* – I am not insulting people based on their weight.  What I’m suggesting in general is that some of the people riding a short loop on the maximum setting would: –

    a). Be better off in terms of physical health if they rode a non-assisted bike

    b). If one short lap of an XC red route on max assistance is consistent limit of your exercise, maybe MTB is not the sport for you.

    Continued in next post.

    kerley
    Member

    If one short lap of an XC red route on max assistance is consistent limit of your exercise, maybe MTB is not the sport for you.

    Unless of course they are happy doing that.  Better than not getting out at all.

    Premier Icon jamj1974
    Subscriber

    You can apply that to anything in life. Can you honestly say that you have never taking the ‘fat & lazy’ route? Have you never ordered a take away? Did you refit your new kitchen? Have you ever had your car washed by someone else?

    You don’t know me, but laziness isn’t my failure.  Trying to do too much is my weakness.

    People priorities their time and energy into different things in life. As long as it’s not hurting anyone, crack on! I put a lot of my effort into volunteering. Late nights, weekends gone.

    Fair play.  Too many people don’t put the effort into helping others.

    I can’t always find time to fit in my local loops. An e-bike would make that possible.

    Crazy suggestion this – but maybe expend the same energy on a shorter loop on a normal bike…?

    I’ve been out riding every other evening in this heat. I’ve been passed by about 10 ebike in the last week (ridden by the whole spectrum of riders). You know what I thought? It wasn’t ‘you lazy fat ***********’. It was ‘that looks mega’!

    Whereas I think, you could be putting the effort yourself and feeling more gains.  Totally can’t see the point unless you are incapacitated short or long-term.

    Premier Icon jamj1974
    Subscriber

    I was boiling up, cramping and running out of water. It was a suffer fest and I started not to enjoy my local loop. I would love to have one for days like that. Days I want to cover ground without torturing myself. Days I want to take in nature and not keep my head down. It’s in addition to, not instead of for me.

    I don’t get this.  If I don’t want to suffer – I ride slower or shorter.  If I really did t want any chance of discomfort – I’d get a motorbike.  At the moment that’s hard as I suffer on all rides – but I carry on.  I have a diagnosis of artherosclerosis and am waiting for my surgery.  Even blowing out of my arse on a short climb or riding a shorter route – I still prefer to ride a normal bike.  I walk the walk.  Obviously, at the same time I understand some people can’t.  I actually don’t have a problem with throttle controlled e-bikes for people with sufficient disability.

    Still, you’d see me on a trail and call me names (on the internet).

    Whilst I am not into name calling for the sake of it, I’m not the kind of coward who would call someone something online and not be open about in real life.

    No consideration for any of the above. Just label all users the same.

    No, not really but don’t let that get in your way.

    I’m a fit mid/late-twenties rider. I race various  and push myself hard.

    That is good.  I still push myself – but I can’t get anywhere fast at the moment.

    However, my real issue boils down to these things:

    1). eMTB is being marketed heavily because it sells more product.  More product using more materials to make more margin.  Manufacturers don’t really care if it get more people out or let’s you ride further faster.  They care about selling more expensive stuff at greater profit in greater volume.  They don’t care about destroying one market to make a bigger one.

    2). I like some places being hard to get to. That makes them quieter and less busy.  Part of it for me is getting away from large groups of people.  I want it to stay that way.

    3). What happens if eMTB becomes the big money maker and the less-profitable normal bike become less available at the quality I want?  If there’s not a reasonable market the development stops and the sport/pastime stagnates.  Selfishly, I don’t want that to happen.

    Premier Icon singlespeedstu
    Subscriber

    What I am saying is that e-bikes are being used because some people using them don’t wish to expend energy.  The amount of people blasting past on climbs in turbo and clearly only completing 1 lap of a 14km trail suggests they might be a bit, just a bit averse to expending energy.

    What has that got to do with you?

    I’ll tell you what it has to do with you.

    Nothing at all.

    If I really did t want any chance of discomfort – I’d get a motorbike.

    Ever raced off road on a motorbike?

    Something tells me not.

    Back in the late 80’s a bought my first MTB to help train for my  moto enduro racing.

    It was suggested I might want to enter an MTB race.

    I couldn’t believe how unfit some of those mountainbikers were…

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Member

    Crazy suggestion this – but maybe expend the same energy on a shorter loop on a normal bike…?

    why? just to keep you happy? what’s the difference if the same energy is expended?

    Premier Icon jamj1974
    Subscriber

    What has that got to do with you?

    I’ll tell you what it has to do with you.

    Nothing at all.

    Much like my opinion could be seen to have nothing to do with you?  If that’s truly your approach – shouldn’t you have just ignored it…?

    Anyway, this is only my opinion and experience – it doesn’t need to trouble anyone else.  You don’t need to agree.  What I must admit though is my first post on this thread was too strongly worded and in fact my words were carelessly chosen.  It’s not an excuse but yesterday was a bit shit all round.  Given the option, I would rescind that post as it’s been less than helpful and understandably annoyed a few people.  It’s not aided any reasonable debate.

    My original agreement with Dave Turner is that these ebikes are being pushed as far as the mainstream is concerned as a replacement for normal bikes and that we could lose something special as a result.  There is something rather amazing about getting out purely under your own steam and exploring.  If you can’t see that I feel sorry for you.

    I do see there is a place of e-bikes, totally can understand their role as an alternative to uplift or as a great commuting tool, but would we all really want to see normal bikes supplanted and obliterated as a high-quality machine?  I wouldn’t – and that’s where the proliferation is about us all, that’s where everyone’s opinion is worth including.

    I’ll step back from this thread now, as I haven’t shown myself in the best light and I don’t think any further input from me will improve matters.

    geex
    Member

    it’s pretty obvious from what certain folk on here say about Emtbs they’ve never descended technical DH trails on one either.

    I’ll spell i out for those who haven’t. On an Emtb to descend in the same manner as your enduro/DH bike you’re actually going to need to be stronger.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Member

    jamj1974, have you ridden an ebike yet?

    Premier Icon singlespeedstu
    Subscriber

    So you’ve never raced off road on a motorbike then.

    You should try it it’s dead easy you just sit there and twist your right hand.

    No other physical activity going on at all…

    it doesn’t need to trouble anyone else.

    I very much dought that it does.

    Much like my opinion could be seen to have nothing to do with you?  If that’s truly your approach – shouldn’t you have just ignored it…?

    Oh the old classic post on a public forum with some shit and think you’re unquestionable.

    Have you ridden an ebike?

    There’s more to riding a bike than wearing a hair shirt on the climbs.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Member

    would we all really want to see normal bikes supplanted and obliterated as a high-quality machine?

    It’s not really going to happen, long as people like yourself keep buying them. If the market dissappears, means there’s no market, and well you’ve lost the argument.

    But they won’t disappear.

    Premier Icon jamj1974
    Subscriber

    Just a couple of (Non-argumentative), final responses and then I’m out.

    No, I have never raced off-road motorbikes.  I never in any way said that I had.  I meant that riding a motorbike involves less pedalling.  However, I did quite frequently ride around on a mini-motocross bike for a couple of years – as one of my mates had one and a couple of acres of land.  I was only 8 & 9 and it wasn’t in anyway competitive or extreme in nature.  Riding around a bit of scrubby woodland – that was it.  I am though massively aware that riding a motocross bike fast – is not physically easy.

    I have ridden an e-bike recently – but not for a ‘proper’ ride.  I couldn’t claim to be massively interested in one (No surprise), so didn’t spend a lot of time on it.  It was ok, but not compelling.  If I had no other option for health reasons to get out I would happily ride one.  Until then it’s not for me – although obviously others feel differently.

    I haven’t thought I was unquestionable – of course not on a public forum.  I was simply saying if nothing anyone else did was my business, why would my opinion be yours..?  It’s hardly reaching.

    And, yes – clearly descending at speed on an emtb would take greater effort.  It weighs more, changes the ratio of body weight to bike weight, so yes, it’s easy to see.

    I am now leaving this thread permanently – as I am well aware that my posts as mentioned above, have not been generally helpful.  I don’t usually set out to offend or annoy – but quite obviously and understandably have.  The best thing for me to do is apologise and stop posting on the thread so, please can we let this finish here.

    Premier Icon singlespeedstu
    Subscriber

    I don’t usually set out to offend or annoy – but quite obviously and understandably have. The best thing for me to do is apologise and stop posting on the thread

    That takes a lot to admit. Thanks for that.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Member

    They’re not really unhelpful or offensive, at all, just come across as you wanting to impose your will on other people, for no real apparent reason other than, I suffer so you should too. Fun policesque! 😆

    you cycle for effort, I cycle for enjoyment, transport, scenery and a bit of fitness. It’s all good. 🙂

    nealglover
    Member

    who is he ?

    That in itself is hilarious.

    why ?

    Premier Icon rone
    Subscriber

    why ?

    Because he’s produced some of the most pioneering mountain bikes of the previous 20 years.

    Seriously, never heard of a 5 spot or a Sultan, or even a Burner?

    We’ll have to see how this all pans out over the next decade. I think it’d be a shame if ‘clockwork bikes’ became museum pieces but judging from the posts on here I’d say that there is a chance of that happening. When I first came to mountain biking, articles such as Guy Martin riding his Cotic Soul (with heavily patched inner tubes)  around the moors with the poor interviewer try to keep up, were what inspired me. I don’t see that adding more expensive, complex machinery to a beautiful, simple piece of equipment, as a good thing.

    I’m fortunate in that I’ve found a niche for myself in xc racing where hopefully bikes will remain purely human powered and I’ll continue to be able to enjoy the company of like minded people. I only come into contact with ebikes when I go to trail centres anyway which is once in a blue moon, but I must admit I hate the thought of being overtaken by someone less fit than me on a climb, doesn’t seem right, but that’s my problem and I enjoy giving chase and using them as a rabbit to make me push myself harder in training.

    So why do I feel so anti? It’s so hard to explain to people who don’t let the following things bother them: TV – generally, what a waste of time, plastic food in plastic wrappers, big expensive cars bought on credit by people who can’t really afford them, credit in general – if you can’t afford it then you can’t afford it! I won’t go on, I’m sure you get my point. I’m not a Luddite, I just think that actual happiness is often achieved when you stop trying to have the next thing and slow down a bit to enjoy what you have.

    Bracing myself yet again for the howls of derision by the extremely shouty pro group. Don’t slay a man for trying to look into the future and expressing concerns about the human condition. Just look at the state of our planet and ask yourself do we really need millions of new units of bulky, toxic trash dumped into our consumer train? As mountain bikers couldn’t we take the high ground and say ‘no we don’t want your sh*t, we want to enjoy the woods and hills on the stuff we’ve got already, powered by our own efforts’, a little bit separate from the madding crowd fighting for the next iPhone in the cities.

    I know this arguament is full of flaws and ridiculously eutopian, and the fact that I’m typing on a forum instead of going out in this beautiful morning rather goes against my preaching, but I keep feeling compelled to post on these threads and keep banging my head against the wall when I just ask you all to think in a different way for maybe a tiny benefit to the world we live in.

    P.S. before you point out that xc racing is not carried out on simple pieces of equipment, I’d add that I heartily agree. I think racing would be great if it was based on one-design, cheap, simple bikes where you paid your money, pulled a bike off the rack and lined up to compete on equal terms. In road racing/crits i find it ridiculous that you have fifteen year olds on 5k superbikes. Legs should do the talking, not wallets.

    kerley
    Member

    I just think that actual happiness is often achieved when you stop trying to have the next thing and slow down a bit to enjoy what you have.

    What XC race bike do you have, the latest thing or a 20 year old one that does the job?

    And yes your argument is clearly full of flaws – comparing use of bikes to plastics and PCP is ridiculous.  People driving a car because it is easier and quicker than walking r public transport is a better comparison but even that is poor.

    I am not interested in eBikes either (other than I would like more people to ride them where I live so they can pace me up hills) but you are mistaking people like me who are happy for people just to get out and ride for the shouty pro group.  I am not sensing a shouty pro group but I do sense a shouty anti group.

    In fairness I did race a second hand, singlespeed, rigid 26’er until a couple of years ago when I finally got fed up with being disadvantaged on some courses and had to buy a 29er to keep up.

    And wouldn’t it be great if walking/public transport was utilised more? I find driving the single most aggravating thing I have to face each day.

    Premier Icon jameso
    Subscriber

    1). eMTB is being marketed heavily because it sells more product.  More product using more materials to make more margin.  Manufacturers don’t really care if it get more people out or let’s you ride further faster.  They care about selling more expensive stuff at greater profit in greater volume.  They don’t care about destroying one market to make a bigger one.

    The only bit of that with any truth is the marketing bit, and of course wanting to sell more stuff, as any business does.

    In fact this thread has highlighted what a waste of time the internet can be. I’ve just spent an hour typing shit to an audience who doesn’t care and all it’s done has irritated myself and others. I only look at this site when I’m bored, it’s a bit of an automatic thing.

    Time to try go cold turkey and stop doing it. Wish me luck! I’ll be cool when I see you out on the trails whatever you ride, I only get antsy when on here.

    Right, it’s a beautiful, sunny day. Laterz xxx

    Premier Icon davosaurusrex
    Subscriber

    I’m recovering from a broken neck and having an ebike has got me out and riding much sooner than I would have done on my clockwork bike as I have been able to lean on the motor assistance. However I broke my neck when I crashed the ebike,  there wasn’t that much wrong with me beforehand.

    I think I may just have invented some sort of perpetual motion machine. Do i win £5?

    kerley
    Member

    In fact this thread has highlighted what a waste of time the internet can be. I’ve just spent an hour typing shit to an audience who doesn’t care and all it’s done has irritated myself and others.

    You are doing it wrong.  If I spend more than 20 seconds typing something on a forum then I have failed.  The more you write the less it is read.  I see it as a back and forth discussion and if someone went off on a 5 minute rant I would have walked away before they finished.

    TurnerGuy
    Member

    Turner…? Aren’t they the one that used to be posh Specializeds until they wouldn’t/couldn’t pay the Horst Link license to SBC any longer, then became posh Konas for a bit as it was an easy redesign and eventually became posh Giants?

    that is a dickhead comment. Specialized bought the patent after Turner had been using it, which is why they stopped, same story for Giant with their NRS. And Giant ripped off the dw-link system that Turnr licensed on their bikes. Certainly when I compared some Turners and Giants, Turners dw-linked bikes were better performing.

    Typical grumpy old man comment there…

    piemonster
    Member

    Ignoring the usual issues and defences people raise.

    Will the proliferation deflate the price of non motorised……. sorry……non motor assisted bikes?

    Will we also see a reduction in choice? Particularly in the mid range where my bikes usually sit.

    So long as I can find bikes without motor assistance ride what you like. I won’t buy into e bikes unless forced by health but that’s a personal choice. If fun was the primary factor that might be different. I can’t see non ebikes being exterminated tbh. A though that sprang to my whilst in a traditional clinker built rowing skiff off the Scottish coast yesterday morning as we left the jet skis behind hooning around the bay.

    TurnerGuy
    Member

    I disagree with the “people will want more” argument. Aside from the legal constraints in the EU, there is the weight issue.

    Don’t forget that he is talking about ‘mericans, who drive around in cars with huge engines just because they can be huge, and I don’t think their e-bikes are subject to the restrictions we have.

    I agree with Dave in many respects, but also with many people here that say that the e0bike has actually got them out on the trails where they at least got some physical, and mental, benefits.

    I’ve got a couple of those EUCs, which are bugger all exercise, but strangely can be good for calming down your state of mind.

    But he is talking as if from the viewpoint of the skier that would prefer to skin up a mountain in order to ski down and feel they had earned it, instead of take a helicopter ride to the top. A more purist view.

    But I have seen several physically able people get e-mtbs basically because they because they are lazy – I could see that when riding with them.

    I’ve spoken to Tim a lot about this – he’s someone who’s ridden over a million feet of ascent two years in a row, competed in the Leadville 100, holds lots of KOMs on his intense local trails, and he absolutely loves how much further and faster he goes on his ebike. And says he’s fitter than ever because of it:

    kerley
    Member

    But I have seen several physically able people get e-mtbs basically because they because they are lazy – I could see that when riding with them.

    Maybe they just want to go out for a ride with less effort.  If they were lazy they wouldn’t be on a bike at all, they would be sat on the sofa watching tv.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Member

    I do wonder about the pain merchants. When you go for a 20/40/60 miles cycle, do you not feel like your are cheating when you could have ran that? There’s always more pain you can inflict on yourselves.

    Ultra runners everywhere must be looking down their noses at you! 😆

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Member

    I think we can all agree that David Turner’s marketing strategy has worked a treat btw!

    I’d no idea who he was and had only vaguely heard of the bike brand! 😆

    <div class=”bbp-reply-author”>nealglover
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    who is he ?

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    That in itself is hilarious.

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    why ?

    Its funny as I didn’t find it hilarious that the poster didn’t know who Turner was because he’s a legend more that Turner is pointlessly raging against something as his audience don’t know who he is so don’t value his opinion. Things have moved on.

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