David Turner’s View on E-Bikes

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  • David Turner’s View on E-Bikes
  • Have to say I agree with him.

    Premier Icon jam bo
    Subscriber

    I’m lazy, with a very short attention span, can I have the edited highlights?

    Premier Icon dangeourbrain
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    Man with things to sell convinced his thing is better than other thing and manages to justify the conclusion he’s already reached.

    A Turner ebike would kill his brand image, same as a mass produced sick bikes folder would kill theirs.

    He might be right, he might be wrong but it’s not exactly ground breaking stuff.

    Premier Icon jam bo
    Subscriber

    So new Turner ebike next year then?

    PeterPoddy
    Member

    Turner…? Aren’t they the one that used to be posh Specializeds until they wouldn’t/couldn’t pay the Horst Link license to SBC any longer, then became posh Konas for a bit as it was an easy redesign and eventually became posh Giants?

    have i just arrived in a time machine.. remember mr turner said this last year aswell

    Garry_Lager
    Member

    Like how he pauses for five seconds at the start, as if the e-bike atrocity defies articulation. He soon gets his legs under him though – good vid.

    Premier Icon davosaurusrex
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    As someone who has had a series of Turners from a 98 XCE to a DW Sultan I have the utmost respect for David Turner. I met him once and have spoken to him on the phone a number of times, a lovely fella. So may I be the first to say “shut it grandad!”

    P-Jay
    Member

    I agree with some of it, especially the not weening off them, like Vaping it’s a new thing, not an aid for the old thing for most.

    But, really does it matter? I don’t see E-Bikes as a 275 style watershed moment, I don’t think we’ll all be shocked when one September when all the new bikes are released and all the fancy ones have motors on them, but who knows eh?

    Lucky for us who still want the opportunity to buy high end non-ebikes in the future I can’t imagine the UCI ever allowing motors outside of a specific category and bike cos will always want to sell bikes based on the ones that race and riders will always want to buy bikes they see their favourite riders on.

    Premier Icon cookeaa
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    I sort of agree with him, he has a point about human nature when it comes to the idea of “new” and “more”…

    It’s perhaps less bleak than the image he paints of the future, but I do think plenty of people who don’t really ‘need’ an ebike will still see it as an almost default choice…

    That said, we’re all free to buy (or indeed not buy) whatever we like…

    Garry_Lager
    Member

    But, really does it matter? I don’t see E-Bikes as a 275 style watershed moment, I don’t think we’ll all be shocked when one September when all the new bikes are released and all the fancy ones have motors on them, but who knows eh?

    You wouldn’t be shocked by that? It would remove the link between the sport of mountain biking [XC, DH, enduro etc] and high end bike design, which would be an eye-opener for most I reckon.

    I think that’s why his viewpont is interesting – not because he thinks e-bikes are aids on wheels, there’s nothing revelatory about that I guess, but his projections of where things will go. Given the massive growth of ebikes in a rel short timeframe he’s probably under-estimating the longterm impact.

    Premier Icon roverpig
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    I thought he did make one very good point. All the talk about the positive things that ebikes could be used for is fair enough, but that won’t be how most people use them.

    ryder
    Member

    The man and the company have been getting increasingly out of touch and irrelevant over the last 10 years or so and this is just another example. And I am an ex Fanboy of all things Turner

    Premier Icon seosamh77
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    Kinda agree with him too, don’t think it’ll kill it, but it’ll seriously eat into the mtb market, must have already tbh. The pinch must be starting to get felt, particular as emtbs aren’t cheap, so they’ll be taking a big slice of the pie even if they sell less.

    But in saying that, emtb will also grow the market, as the mtb sector is now opened up to more people. So I guess the question is, is that extra growth enough to keep both camps happy?

    I guess that also leads to the question what are the camps? As there plenty out there adapting to emtbs as well as mtbs. So if people stubbornly refuse to accept the inevitable they are likey to fell the pinch more? As is you’ve a foot in both camps it shouldn’t really matter, it’s just a larger more diverse market now? (Which isn’t really much different to what’s happened in the mtb market over the last 30 years, new niches have been embraced and have enhanced the overall picture)

    Actually, I think I completely disagree with him now! 😆 He’s talking nonsense!

    Premier Icon jamj1974
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    I agree with a lot of what he has said there.  There are some users – including more than a couple from here, who use them to minimise the impact of ill health – hats off to them.  There are others who use them to make the commute more feasible – again a very good thing.

    Then there are some who use them because they don’t want to really put effort in – largely out of laziness.  There, I have said it!  There are the usual arguments against this.  The further, more argument.  The use of balancing out unequal fitness argument.  The you go faster so it’s the same effort argument. Mostly it seems to be complete bullshit.

    Most of the users and would be purchasers I have seen are fat (like me but often much more so), the users I have encountered don’t seem to push it that hard as they are not hot or breathless (unlike me).  When watching people buy them there seems to be a large ‘aspirational’ element to it as well. Either that or I witness a disproportionate amount of lardy, lazy and transitioning from carbon enduro wunderbike to emtb silver machine, people.

    People can justify it however they like, but if you are fit enough to ride a pedal-powered bike over a ‘normal’ distance then an eMTB is an admission of failure really.  I know a lot of eMTB-riding people won’t care – and I don’t say they should.  There again, they don’t care that what they are doing isn’t true to the spirit of the sport.  The sport is about moving yourself around to get about the great outdoors.  It’s not about being propelled along a path using power – unless that’s your only option of course.

    Premier Icon scotroutes
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     There again, they don’t care that what they are doing isn’t true to the spirit of the sport.  The sport is about moving yourself around to get about the great outdoors.

    Only if you think that cycling is a sport at all. I see it as a pasttime,just like many others in which I participate. I also have a motorbike. No one ever accused that of being a cheaters way to ride a bicycle. E-bikes are merely another option.

    nealglover
    Member

    He starts of by suggesting that they are

    “not going to be used in all the wonderful ways as is often claimed, such as elderly or disabled people”

    Who is it that is supposedly claiming that is what ebikes are for ?

    It’s suits his argument very well, to start off with a completely false claim that suggests anyone not elderly or disabled is somehow in the wrong by default, and are breaking some fictional agreement, that he’s just invented, by using one.

    He then spends most of the rest of the interview talking how everyone will be illegally chipping them,  another figment of his imagination to suit his argument.

    All in all, piss poor points all round. 👍

    (who is he ?)

    Premier Icon DezB
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    Here! this video was on some obscure website weeeeks ago! what was it…? oh yeah singletracksomething…

    Prediction: same old ebike thread.

    What surprises me when I see these threads is how much love for ebikes there is on here. I’m so out of touch with the easier is better way of thinking. For me satisfaction comes largely from effort, practice and pushing yourself. I’m with Dave on his views and wish more were.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    Then there are some who use them because they don’t want to really put effort in – largely out of laziness.  There, I have said it!  There are the usual arguments against this.  The further, more argument.  The use of balancing out unequal fitness argument.  The you go faster so it’s the same effort argument. Mostly it seems to be complete bullshit.

    I’ll be entirely honest, fitness is the reason I don’t particularly cycle so much any more, certainly mtbing is much more limited and pedestrian these days(I’d a crash about 4 years ago and it completely killed my mojo, and I spiraled from there).

    But I’ve retrofitted my bike, and I’ve now done 65miles since tuesday, commuting and testing it around local trails, it’s a riot, and my weekly range is only going to get bigger(I’ll be out at the weekend too, so I’ll probably easily add another 40/50miles in). I also, while not even close to feeling it like I do on an “acoustic” bike, I can clearly feel like I’ve been pedalling and putting some effort in, so having the ebike will improve my fitness over time, as essentially, I’ll use it everywhere now. (And it’ll pay for itself, scotrail is now out of pocket, my contribution to them is now being with held foe the foreseeable!). 100+ miles per week cycling an ebike will contribute to better fitness, tbh that’s indisputable.

    As for admission of failure, maybe, but then again, I can blast it uphills I wouldn’t even contemplate cycling up, and I can keep going faster and longer than I could on any normal bike. As with cycling, they are completely relative to fitness. I’m unfit, freely admit it, but this thing will take me 80miles on the flat on a charge, 30/40 miles in the hills, as I will pedal reasonable well and will make sure there’s pedal resistance, a fitter rider would get a lot more, a less fit rider will get a lot less.

    As with cycling, you’ll get what you put into it. So yeah, you can sit there and berate people, call them fatties, lazy whatever, but tbh, that just sucks. Just encourage people and they’ll get out and might just get fitter as a consequence. I don’t really see how that is a bad thing?

    As for weening off, yeah, agree there, doubt I will, I’ll just get faster and get more range, that’s the game now.

    It’s just different, not bad, worse, or cheating. Everyone is limited by their own physical limitation, the ebike is irrelevant.

    It’s not eating into your niche(well might be a bit, but I guess that’s a question that’s up for debate and will develop over time), it’s just another niche and it’s expanding the market and making it open to more people(potential a lot more people, if done right, it could be a proper revolution)

    Premier Icon tomhoward
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    What surprises me when I see these threads is how much love for ebikes there is on here.

    I think youll find the the vast majority of ebike lovers on here have an equal or greater love for the non assisted variety too

    Oh what’s the point in arguing about it? Let’s not do another 10 page slanging match. Too much of that on this forum.

    I’m only on the computer because it’s too hot to go outside to train.

    nealglover
    Member

    What surprises me when I see these threads is how much love for ebikes there is on here.

    Yeah, people liking bikes of all different types on a bike forum is a bit weird.

    kerley
    Member

    He is making up a lot of stuff.  The patronising “they are okay for disabled people” and where did the weening off thing come from.  I have never thought anyone bought one to get them cycling and then sell it to get a standard bike.

    If people want to have assistance when they cycle so what.  The arguments against are from people who clearly have no interest in using one.  I have no interest but I can’t see any problems with them at all.

    Some people are less fit than others.  I pass many people on normal bikes because I am fitter than them and sometimes I get passed by other riders who are fitter than me.  So what.

    nealglover
    Member

    He is making up a lot of stuff.

    I would go as far as to say that all the main points his long rambling argument were made up.

    Make something up like….

    “All these people claim they will just use an ebike for a while, then buy a normal bike when they are fitter”

    Then say “but…. nobody does! … it’s terrible, it’s like they are addicted”

    ”Therefore, as I’ve just proved, ebikes are bad. Simple”

    Premier Icon rickmeister
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    It’s a funny thing, ebikes.

    over here in Germany / Switzerland, they are everywhere and it’s more likely to see an ebike than not. Attitude is a little different to this.  You can do more in a day, see more, experience more, have more fun at no expense to the environment or the group you’re with, ebike or not.

    ebike guiding, tours, races, skills courses, they are all catered for and welcomed.

    Those long alpine climbs are easier and enjoy the downhill, fresh. you’re no less worthy for using ebikes. The only issue I hear is less experienced bikers getting an ebike and over extending their abilities in the big hills.

    Premier Icon jamj1974
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    Seosamh77.  You are definitely not typical of my experience over the last couple of years.

    But again the way you are using is admirable…

    Premier Icon zippykona
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    My brother has moved to sovereign harbour in Eastbourne.

    The traffic in Eastbourne is pretty crap most of the time so driving to the Downs would be a pain.The journey from his house to the Downs is boring. The South Downs themselves are pretty boring.

    Nice views but pretty samey.

    If he bought a big e bike I’d say “fair enough”.

    For me , on the north downs there is no need of one.

    However once I’ve won the lottery tonight and moved to majorca. The high temperatures and big mountains might persuade me to go leccy.

    Premier Icon colp
    Subscriber

    The sport is about moving yourself around to get about the great outdoors.

    I’ve been doing it all wrong these years. I thought it was about getting out, riding fast, looking for good downhill lines, jumps, having fun.

    Wish someone had told me how wrong I was years ago.

    Premier Icon nickc
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    nealglover beat me to it. Turner starts with a false premise and develops an argument for it. it’s just a “thin end of the wedge” fallacy.

    Premier Icon jamj1974
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    I’ve been doing it all wrong these years. I thought it was about getting out, riding fast, looking for good downhill lines, jumps, having fun.

    You mean something like using your bike outside and enjoying it.  Doesn’t seem any different to what I said.

    plus one
    Member

    Popping ecstasy and riding any bike should be banned 😉

    Premier Icon DezB
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    I’m like Mystic Meg, me

    I sort of agree with him, he has a point about human nature when it comes to the idea of “new” and “more”…

    Me too. Which means companies either have to get on the band wagon or offer something substantially different.

    Premier Icon colp
    Subscriber

    You mean something like using your bike outside and enjoying it.  Doesn’t seem any different to what I said.

    It’s very different to what you said.

    You stated that mountain biking is about using the bike as a mode of transport to get around the great outdoors, and it is to a lot of people. But not everyone. To some MTB is purely about fun.

    I’m about to get an E-bike and I’m neither fat, lazy, a failure or particularly aspirational.

    I have a DH bike for some riding, an enduro for other bits, the E-bike will let me explore the mountains around me and session the tracks when the lifts are closed.

    ryder
    Member

    Then there are some who use them because they don’t want to really put effort in – largely out of laziness.

    And why on earth would this be a problem for you? No one is forcing you to buy one? I hate 29ers so I just don’t buy one.

    sirromj
    Member

    I sort of agree with him, he has a point about human nature when it comes to the idea of “new” and “more”…

    We one homogenous human lump sharing same value.

    Premier Icon Mugboo
    Subscriber

    Not remotely scientific but a mate who rides regularly with a bunch of over 50’s said that they are now over 50% e bikes. And a customer who is under 50 but over 40 says that his riding group has gone from 1 e bike to 3 in 6 months.

    When will the tipping point be? When the fitter riders start struggling to keep up with the previously struggling stragglers?

    Premier Icon dangeourbrain
    Subscriber

    Mtb if you can define it at all, is about riding a thing with two wheels and pedals off road surely or would a road bike on your local trails upset you? Does it bother you that the next guy has a 1980s BSO? Why it’s acceptable desirable that it not have a motor or otherwise is bizarre, if you don’t like don’t ride, if you do like, do.

    All this vitriol should be directed into opening up more land, more stuff, more rights of access not getting upset the guy next to you didn’t earn his turns. Crikey i bet you drive to your rides too you wicked beast.

    More people reinforces the argument for more access regardless of if they do it fixed gear or e bike. We’ll end up passing up on the loaf to fight over crumbs.

    None of what someone else does should detract from your enjoyment. If it does the problem isn’t with the someone else.

    Get out, ride your bike, engine or no and enjoy.

    If you can’t take pleasure in what you do, find something else to do.

    Wgas if 99% of sales are e bikes, normal bikes really aren’t going to vanish. Sausage comes to wurst, you’ll have to build your niche bike with rigid forks, no gears, rod brakes and so on from parts. Don’t ride rigid? Don’t have a cast frame? Don’t have rod brakes? Don’t ride fixed? Have pneumatic tyres? Then stop throwing stones in your glass house.

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