Daughter suffering with social anxiety – help!

One of our daughters (aged 14) is really suffering with social anxiety – she is often very quiet (when stewing on things), struggles at school with participating (she is a very high performer academically, but cannot participate in class discussions). Her teachers know not to single her out with questions, but even seemingly tiny things like being given advice on how to tackle something can upset her.

When she is at a particularly low point, she can’t even say anything to us, we just get quiet ‘I don’t know’ or ‘I don’t mind’ responses

She has been having therapy for several months and the therapist admits that she is being a real challenge but remains confident that she’ll sort things out eventually.

It is heartbreaking seeing our daughter (who was always quite shy) become so shut down for most of the time – even as far as beginning to struggle with socialising in her free time, worrying that friends have ‘better’ friends (this is self-perpetuating – she doesn’t socialise so friends naturally will socialise with others which she then assumes they like someone else more).

Her closest friends know about her struggles and fortunately, she has a twin so she is always around to support her, but I’d welcome any advice from anyone that has been through similar and can share experiences/ideas/coping methods etc.

Thank you!

TBH your description sounds to me like it could apply to any number of teenagers. That’s not to dismiss your concern, just saying it sounds pretty normal to me. Could it be that either (a) your expectations of her aren’t being met or (b) you’re being hyper-sensitive due to your fostering issues?

Her closest friends know about her struggles and fortunately, she has a twin so she is always around to support her,

They only need one or two good friends – the rest are transient and will drop people on a whim. Concentrate on the good ones.

My daughter never fitted in with the crowd, she was too headstrong to be swayed by them. She was 21 just before Xmas and only has close contact with 3 of her old school ‘friends’. The rest she couldn’t give a monkeys about now.

My opinion is there’s an eagerness to try and jump fix things when all that’s needed is time to mature.

I have to say my thinking was similar to scotroutes – could be my daughter at 14 (she decided at 15 to tell a bunch of friends to **** off and has been a like a new person, but also went on the pill to manage hormones and difficult menstrual cycle); but we didn’t involve a therapist although I think my wife would have been happier to believe that something was wrong rather than she was just a teenager.  What may well not help is being a twin (I speak from experience) – constantly being compared to the other one is exhausting.  I imagine it would be even more so if the other one is perceived not to be having some of the struggles you are.

My advice would be not to focus on the anxiety, and instead focus on spending quality time with her (with and without her sister) as she will let you. Not all the time, but a chance for her to do things with you and your wife one on one and as a family on a regular basis.

TBH your description sounds to me like it could apply to any number of teenagers. That’s not to dismiss your concern, just saying it sounds pretty normal to me. Could it be that either (a) your expectations of her aren’t being met or (b) you’re being hyper-sensitive due to your fostering issues?

I really can’t agree with either of those suggestions – her entire personality has changed out of hand and she is struggling in almost any social situation. The only way we think the fostering could be playing a part is that she may not feel like she has a safe place at home (fingers crossed the foster child will be moving on in around two weeks) – at least then we will have much more time to focus on her.

Are there any local national trust or well regarded retailers where she might be able to do some weekend work. Conscious this might not be a goer due to age but was just thinking a safe environment like working at national trust cafe might help give her confidence.

has it been  a big change in personality in one go?

My daughter is 14 and Type 1 diabetic, she had a phase where having been relatively outgoing, she became hugely clingy, didn’t want to leave our sides and wasn’t fussed about seeing friends etc.

We accesses the child psych we have access to via her diabetes team and she was brilliant, she explained that often when they go through growth spurts and puberty, that often the brain has little “catch ups” little imbalances, where they are growing so quick and hormones are raging, and that often these are just phases

We have been lucky in that daughter whilst not hugely outgoing, has 2-3 good friends she knocks around with.

I am a university lecturer and we are seeing a lot of this post pandemic from teenagers. It’s not to brush it under the carpet at all or say it’s nothing to worry about, but just to say she is not alone. 

I was similar when growing up, and still am, but the most traumatic stuff was my parents trying to change it.
Them stressing over it and treating it as a problem that needed fixing.
And looking back, it seemed more about them just having different types of personalities.

It helps me to think about it in terms of introvert/extrovert.
And that it’s normal to have social anxiety.
And while being introverted can often be frustrating, it also gives you some superpowers.
So it’s something to be understood/harnessed – rather than changed.

Are you still fostering? I remember that you said on that thread that the situations was affecting your daughter. Even if it wasn’t affecting her directly the way it was affecting you was inevitably affecting her. In her situation I think I’d have learned to keep my head down.

This is an increasing issue, esp. post lockdowns. The best you can do is try to create the conditions where she can come out of her shell, but you can’t make her do it. All the therapy in the world will be insufficient unless she wants to change. What does she enjoy/look forward to? What makes her buzz and want to talk about afterwards? If you know, start here.

Many kids today think that they can lead a fully “normal” social life alone in their bedrooms, with a phone and wifi. Kids who used to tell me that they had good telephone skills because they could order a takeaway now prefer to use an app. Not all progress is goood for us.

No local drama clubs that have small classes nearby?

When you talk about her not responding, and her not participating in group class discussions, that rang a bell with me… I self-identify as an autistic woman and the being unable to respond sounds like a shutdown feels. That is only to say that, this might be how her brain works and isn’t necessarily something ‘wrong’. I am also chronically ‘shy’, absolutely hate talking in public although I have found coping mechanisms I need hours of preparation and it wipes me out for a hours afterwards… including the complete shutdown finding quiet space away from people. And I associate that anxiety with people to my neurodiversity now I am self aware but back when I was a teenager I wouldn’t have known how to talk about it. Even to say I am definitely better at writing it down than verbalising.

The point you made about how she feels about her friends is more concerning, as others have alluded to, changing friendship groups isn’t uncommon but you certainly don’t want her feeling down on herself. Sorry I have no bright ideas there and I hope with time she’ll put those thoughts away.

Have you considered autism? It can present differently in females than males, with social stimulus causing shut down and then needing recuperate in own room or in their own way without interaction. Or at least it does with my wife / daughters

Edit: good luck navigating teenage daughters although it sounds like you’re doing a great job

My daughter has recently been diagnosed as autistic – I could have written your first post (although she is a little younger). Girls are know to mask their behaviour at school very well, and are often very capable academically and tend to fly under the radar of ‘something isnt right’ as they do so well.

Maybe worth exploring, try one of the online autism tests, see how highly (or not) she scores.

Just to have another dib into this thread…

My nephew is autistic (diagnosed) and had a lot of trouble at school. His trait was to lash out in anger at other kids and they knew which buttons to push to get him to do this. He was always in trouble a lot.

He left school at 16 to go to college. Did well there and at 18 got himself a railway engineering apprenticeship. He’s been there 18 months now and he’s a changed kid. Fun to be with and good company – a proper nice lad. A move to adult life has really bought him on.

I taught a couple of girls like that. I liked ‘reading around the class’ and inclusive group discussions but would not direct questions at them, nor apply pressure to read aloud and find other ways to communicate about their work. Their results were ace, I do think you have to let them find their own level and modus operandi but they still love being rewarded for what they do in the way they do. They’re not all the same.

I taught a couple of girls like that. I liked ‘reading around the class’ and inclusive group discussions but would not direct questions at them, nor apply pressure to read aloud and find other ways to communicate about their work. Their results were ace, I do think you have to let them find their own level and modus operandi but they still love being rewarded for what they do in the way they do. They’re not all the same.

Completely agree with this. I taught loads of students like that and they were also high achievers. Theres nothing wrong with being quiet or introverted.

Thank you all for you replies so far – there’s quite a lot to take in, but I’ll try to answer some of the questions/comments as best I can.

The change has been quite sudden – as I said earlier, she has always been quite shy and introverted (which is fine), but this is very different – in the last 6-12 months she has found it harder and harder in social situations, when participating at school etc. When she has these down moods, she cannot explain what it is that is bothering her, why she might be feeling like it. She certainly doesn’t *want* to feel the way she does. I think the only thing getting her to school every day is the fear that if she didn’t make it in, she’d have to face harder questions from her friends as to why she didn’t go in.

I really, really don’t think she is on the spectrum – we have experience of this and know what to look out for (and her sister is also currently being assessed for ADHD).

I can see why people are suggesting volunteering/drama groups etc, but she couldn’t do it – the spotlight on her would be much more than she could cope with.

I certainly do think this could be a post-Covid hangover – she was one of those that was suddenly wrenched out of primary education then thrown in at the deep end at secondary school with barely any support other than a few crappy Zoom calls and a ‘virtual tour’ of her new school.

And finally, yes, we know this could be a phase (we had a similar phase with her sister in yr5/6), but it is debilitating for both her and us to see this beautiful little thing shut down so much. Last week she had a couple of friends over for a sleepover (at our insistence as she hadn’t seen them all Christmas as we had been away with family). All evening she was a joy to see – full of laughs, happy to be with her friends, not caring if she was the centre of attention – we miss seeing that on a regular basis.

But, on the flip-side, the following morning she came downstairs and I joked with her that she looked very tired and then suddenly her mood switched – we had tears and an hour of so of shut-down – all because she was briefly the focus of attention (this was said when it was just me, her and my wife present).

Another woman here who you have described perfectly in the OP. Unless its a sudden change in personality that seems to have been triggered then I wouldn’t worry.  I’d have hated it if someone had tried to fix me as it just makes me shut down more.  Of course I’d prefer not to have the thoughts that people would rather be talking to someone else but over the years I’ve learnt to tell myself its probably not true.  However I would say that my life so far has been happy, healthy and successful, I’ve just done it in my own way.

Last week she had a couple of friends over for a sleepover (at our insistence as she hadn’t seen them all Christmas as we had been away with family).

This kind of thing makes me shudder as it’s a reminder of stuff my parents used to do.
At the time, it just made me miserable, and I wasn’t able to articulate why – which escalated things.

But what I wished I could have said is that I understand it’s done with the very best of intentions.
That you only want what’s best but that it’s achieving nothing and only makes things worse.
And something to consider is that the problem here is really with you.
You don’t understand your daughter or that she’s different to you.

I find it scary that you don’t get why somebody may be exhausted and want some alone time after socialising.
Have you ever tried reading/researching about introverted personality types?

I find it scary that you don’t get why somebody may be exhausted and want some alone time after socialising.
Have you ever tried reading/researching about introverted personality types?

Okay, I get what you are saying based on what I said, however, I truncated the story somewhat. She wanted to meet up with her friends but she wasn’t happy doing what they wanted to do (a Christmas event that required under 16s to be with an adult – she was worried that, if they were questioned about their age, she wouldn’t be able to cope with the spotlight). We then tried to think of alternatives but, by this time she was stewing on things, worried that her friends wouldn’t like her suggesting different ideas and she went into her usual response mechanism of ‘I don’t know’ and I don’t mind’. So we recognised that she really needed someone to help her make a decision and do something about it (she eventually asked her mum to help her writing a message to her friends). So perhaps my saying ‘insistence’ wasn’t quite a true reflection of events, but the last thing she and we wanted was for her to have not seen her friends for two full weeks then having to face going into school.

Is she interested in animals at all?  The daughter of someone I know was really struggling with anxiety to the point where her Mum was extremely worried about her.  The daughter started going to a small local riding school and her Mum cannot believe the change in her.  The daughter is now spending all weekend at the stables, I think probably doing stable jobs in return for lessons.  I don’t think it needs to be horses – I’m sure volunteering at a cat/dog home or animal sanctuary would have the same benefits.  

I’ve thought posting an almost identical thread for my 8yo daughter and many of the posts resonate.

The upshot it – she’s a shy introvert, she gets her energy from downtime, being alone with us (parents), a book, her Kindle (tablet not reader), drawing, writing, toys but importantly NOT from hanging out with a bunch of friends. She has a small bunch of friends at school – 3 “close” friends, another few who she’ll interact with. I don’t think she has ever asked for a playdate but will do them, preferably one on one.

It all became very apparent this year after a Brownie camp seemingly traumatised her. Lots of girls, mostly older and bigger (she’s very small), she spent the days and weeks before it anxious and tearful, when there she was frazzled, tearful, shut down. Opened our eyes to who and how she is – at home she can be the life of the party, funny, clever, energetic in bursts. Then we realised outside of the home she barely says boo to a goose. She will if asked, but its like her voice is in her stomach and she has to work it out. After upset, she’ll go into shut down and it makes her worse if anyone tries to comfort her out of it.

Possibly she’s autistic, we haven’t had her assessed.

Ultimately we know who and what she is and what she needs – not to be forced into social situations or group activities (she didn’t go back to Brownies, we tried drama club, she goes to Cubs but with me there as a leader).

On having fewer friends – so what? Some people are extroverts and thrive on company, doing everything they can with whoever they can. There’s no “normal” here, just personalities – learn who she is, what she likes and try not to force anything else that induces anxiety – that’s the worst thing. My frustration from it is that I have been like that in varying degrees until fairly recently (I’m 47) and its easy at this stage to say “go do it, you’re missing out on all that fun!”. But, she’s happy being happy and unhappy being anxious so best to create happy memories than bad ones.

Great post @jimmy
Very much agree with this:

There’s no “normal” here, just personalities – learn who she is, what she likes and try not to force anything else that induces anxiety – that’s the worst thing.

@copa , similarly liked you post. This sticks out:

At the time, it just made me miserable, and I wasn’t able to articulate why – which escalated things.

I’ve asked mine until blue in the face why she’s upset or what triggered it. It made me frustrated and even angry for a while but that, of course, never helps.

She doesn’t know, or can’t articulate it and that’s now fine. I remember feeling like that as a kid and maybe she’ll work it out one day, or maybe its just a feeling. Sometimes (Edit: almost always) its just best to let her know we’re definitely not angry and leave her to decompress.

I am very sorry that it seems she has had a change and it appears she feels down because of it. I didn’t mean to imply that it’s not an anxiety, whether neurodiverse or neurotypical the anxiety is very real. I was just saying neurodiversity might be something worth investigating in addition to the therapy etc, as there is a lot more specific advice and support these days.

A number of threads on mental health on here allude to having to try a number of therapies and therapists. While I am sure everyone is engaging with good intentions, you said her therapist / therapy sessions might not be going anywhere. If possible for you, could you look to change therapists?

My brother has anxiety and the decision making issues that result from ‘executive dysfunction’. A friend who is an occupational therapist helped a lot, I believe talking through CBT approaches with him. They don’t work for everyone though. I would only go down that route if your daughter proactively says that the anxiety is an issue and that she wants to do something about it.

And again, if she brings it up, you could suggest she goes away to a quiet space and when it comes to her, either write down how she feels or record on her phone if she can verbalise it. I would say it needs to be a purely private record – making sure none of you attempt to look at / hear it – just as a way for her to get those feelings out and for her to understand herself, how did she feel and why did she feel that way. It gives her brain practice of describing feelings / emotions. She may herself in time refer back to help explain how she feels in those moments.

jondoh – I think you are quite right not to want to force her towards drama groups or volunteering in a shop (and I’d certainly not assume the a national trust shop/cafe is intrinsically a nice low confrontation place to be either!).  This bit of your follow up post resonated with me:

I certainly do think this could be a post-Covid hangover – she was one of those that was suddenly wrenched out of primary education then thrown in at the deep end at secondary school with barely any support other than a few crappy Zoom calls and a ‘virtual tour’ of her new school.

I agree.  A generation screwed by government but failed locally by people who should have had the foresight to realise that this was a problem – and the problem is not finding the maths class or knowing which queue to go to for lunch.  It’s working out who you friends are, where you belong and how to integrate with everyone.    There’s a lot of evolution of friends groups at that age anyway, as you realise that because your mum was friends with her mum at the school gates doesn’t stop her being a pain in the arse, or because you went to the same dance school together doesn’t mean you are best friends.  Even when that school transition was normal there were lots of friendships made and then drifted apart in the first few years because you suddenly found yourself in a class of people you didn’t know, and some random kid at the desk next to you said hello so was now the closest thing you had to a friend in a scary world.  Then a while later you realise that the only thing you had in common was the first letter of your surname or however you had been juxtaposed together.

Now imagine doing that in a setting where you had to wear a mask.  Social distancing was encouraged.  Lots of online learning.   Visiting each others homes was discouraged.  It wasn’t a good start for them.  You can easily end up on a group of “friends” who whilst not bad, aren’t really your people.  It can seem like it would be impossible to switch friends this late into school.  My daughter astonished us by doing exactly that and being much happier for it.  I’ll not bore everyone with the nitty gritty (and as she’s a teenager I don’t know all of it), but it seems to have arisen through a series of what now seem like happy coincidences – that included joining scouts/explorers to do DOE.  I’m not saying that this is the solution for your daughter, but some interest which isn’t about “being in the spotlight” or forcing social interaction might help her realise there are other options – and work out who she wants to be (which might be an introvert who is socially awkward – society needs them too).

if your daughter proactively says that the anxiety is an issue

She does think it is an issue – she is hating what is happening to her, she doesn’t understand why she feels how she does and that frustrates her even more. As I said earlier, she has always been quite shy and that is not a problem at all, we understand that and she is an absolute delight to be around. But the last few months have seen a massive decline – it is not just shyness, it is an inability to cope with daily situations and even the thought of what might happen – she will tear herself up inside thinking about ‘what if X does Y and the outcome is Z – how will I feel, how will I cope’? These things never happen or, if they do, the outcome is never as awful as she thought it might be in her head. These things can be as small as someone brushing by her and smiling an apology – she’ll take that apologetic smile as a sarcastic smile, the person laughing at her and finding fault in her. When she goes into town, she imagines everyone looking at her and judging her, seeing her (imaginary) faults. She basically thinks she is being constantly judged.

And Poly – thank you for your response, it’s all so true. Fortunately she does have some nice friends (including one who went though a period of anxiety herself so is very empathetic) – in fact she has actually made a nicer and closer group of friends at secondary school than she had at primary (although if she was like she is now when she started Year 7, I think things would be massib=vely different). She did try to to a ‘Sports Leadership’ programme at school (she is very good at netball) but she went to the intro class and realised she couldn’t do it which is a shame. She has also got a place on DoE but again, the decline in her state of mind more recently may make her decide not to do it. I hope not.

It’s not easy and mid-teens are a terrible time for many children, often compounded by experiences at school and college. My daughter has always had difficulty socialising, even with the very few people she might call friends. She finished college in June and we have tried not put too much pressure on her to get a job immediately because I know even the prospect of an interview alone is frightening and I don’t think she could handle a job where there is too much pressure to behave in specific ways. She has started volunteering in a charity shop twice a week and really enjoying it, though she does not interact with customers much or have to use the till; I wouldn’t like to claim that a huge change has taken place but it is certainly a positive step. Your daughter may eventually find something that helps in a similar way.

But try not to despair too much. She’s still very young and while the changes you’d like to see may be a long time happening things can and surely will improve. Parents naturally want to fix problems for their kids but sometimes what works is not obvious. Parents trying to be supportive can backfire but just being there, being patient and showing you will always care and are trying to understand can help a great deal.

Well that was a hard weekend – she was meant to be going to a party on Saturday (and she was looking forward to it). However, during the afternoon she found out there were going to be party games which of course could mean she’d end up being the focus of attention. My wife and her sister both tried to rationalise with her, saying that he didn’t have to play games, others would probably opt not to play too and that her concerns about what *could* happen will be wildly different to what would actually happen. Cue hours of struggling with making a decision, complete with sobbing and crying and anger at herself for being like that. My wife and I were meant to be having a quiet night, a take-out and a film but we ended up with her sat with us. She took most of Sunday to come back down from it but fortunately she seemed to have calmed down today and went into school relatively happily.

Of course, it turned out that they barely played any games and quite a few people opted not to play anyway (our other daughter went so we know this first-hand).

It’s so upsetting to see her like this – I so hope we find a way out of it relatively quickly 🙁

sobbing and crying and anger at herself for being like that.

Where like that is in the range of being perfectly normal. 

Where like that is in the range of being perfectly normal

It wasn’t normal for her 12 months ago though – that’s why she doesn’t like it and we are being concerned parents. Right now, I don’t think it is correct to consider her current state of mind off as being normal.

It wasn’t normal for her 12 months ago though – that’s why she doesn’t like it and we are being concerned parents. Right now, I don’t think it is correct to consider her current state of mind off as being normal.

It’s absolutely normal for an introverted teenager to want to avoid stuff like party games.

What I find weird, is that you seem to have so little genuine interest in understanding what introverted personalities are like.

And yet, you’re happy to obsess over her actions and decisions. Analysing them; magnifying small/trivial things and making them big issues.

From personal experience, I know just how horrible this can be. How it makes life miserable.
Everything you do and say becomes a potential trigger point for parental trauma.
How tiring and draining it is. How it makes you feel weird and guilty about being who you are.

And how utterly pointless/damaging it all is.

Probably along similar lines, I’d just be reassuring her that its fine not to want to take part and be centre of attention. What you’re saying is still very similar to my own, albeit mine’s younger.

Without reading the whole thread again, did you identify any event that may have triggered this? Something that thrust her into the spotlight where she was really uncomfortable (or didn’t even make it that far) ?

We’ve had similar nights where she’s gone for a sleepover. On cue we’ll get the call saying she’s upset and wants to come home. The chance for a quiet night, or meal out would be great but who doesn’t know the feeling of just wanting to sleep in your own bed? Can’t get angry at that.

It’s absolutely normal for an introverted teenager to want to avoid stuff like party games.

Read my post again – I think you are seriously misunderstanding what I am saying. We totally understand she wants to avoid party games (and other social interactions), we were reassuring her that she could go to the party that she wanted to go to and not have to play the games. She is hating herself for being like this right now and wants our help in trying to understand what is going on. If she didn’t want the help, if she was content with where she is, we would accept it. But she isn’t.

Without reading the whole thread again, did you identify any event that may have triggered this?

The only thing we can really think of (other than the potential for feeling she has lost personal safe space with us having a foster child in the house at the moment) is that mum was working in the same school (not a teacher and barely ever had contact during a normal day) but she moved to a new job at a different school. Lots of her feelings are around ‘hating’ school at the moment, even though she is a model pupil – yr 10, never had a single negative incident and performs above average/well above average in all subjects.

She is hating herself for being like this right now and wants our help in trying to understand what is going on.

I’m sure she is. And I’ve tried, and obviously failed, to explain why that might be.

Jon, have you (well she) been to see the Dr?  I know its easy to label / blame anything we don’t understand about teenagers, and women in general as hormones – but it really does screw with people’s minds.  Of course there may be a whole other bunch of medical / pseudo-medical causes.

Lots of her feelings are around ‘hating’ school at the moment, even though she is a model pupil – yr 10, never had a single negative incident and performs above average/well above average in all subjects.

I’d never rule this out.  We have a weird thing in this country where doing well can be seriously looked down on by our peers.  That creates a dichotomy for the able – strive to be even better but expose yourself to social issues or put in less effort disappointing yourself (and potentially others you care about) but being able to fit in with the mediocrity in society.  In my experience as both pupil and parent many, but not all, teachers aren’t great at seeing this: they see a pupil who is scoring 75% and are delighted they aren’t struggling, but ignoring that they could be scoring 90% if it was less embarrassing to be good/keen. 

I’m sure she is. And I’ve tried, and obviously failed, to explain why that might be.

Because, and apologies if that’s not how you are meaning for it to come across, but it feels like you are telling us that we are wrong and we should just accept that she is who she is and any help that we try to give (help that she is asking for) is just making matters worse. With all possible respect, you appear to be looking at this as someone who has experienced trauma around a similar situation and you seem to be projecting your personal experience onto our daughters’ situation.