Cypriot bail out

Which of the totalitarian EU’s directives/laws would you reverse?

Humans rights of course, imagine people expecting to have rights its a bloody outrage that the EU should force such personal protections onto all of us.

😉

Start from the most recent and work backwards.

Humans rights of course, imagine people expecting to have rights its a bloody outrage that the EU should force such personal protections onto all of us.

They don’t, the ECHR does which is separate from the EU.

Which of the totalitarian EU’s directives/laws would you reverse?

Metric weights and measures sale restrictions

I want to still be able to go into the shop and get a quarter of rhubarb and custard, then next door for a pound of sausages.

Its my right as an Englishman!

Plus the girl looks at me funny when I ask for 454 grammes of emulsified high-fat offal tube!

They don’t, the ECHR does which is separate from the EU.

The European Convention of Human Rights, was agreed by all EU member states, any new state wishing to join has to agree to be bound by the convention. It is very mush of the EU.

It is actually agreed by far more states than the EU, 47 states have signed the ECHR, I seem to recall, including notable non EU members such as Russia and Turkey. The Council of Europe is completely separate from the EU, although all EU members are members of the Council as well.

This is a commonly misunderstood point.

Cypriot banks now likely to remain closed until ‘next Tuesday’.

Junkyard, your belief in the way thinks are supposed to happen in Europe is touching. It restores my faith in human nature, we’ll believe anything if it’s called the right name and we are told it often enough.

That was the point i made re the claims made that i countered with facts about the eu/democracy etc that no one even tried to refute/counter. Your plagiarism is flattering. As for believing what is said it would appear that despite the evidence, and unable to produce any when challenged about it, that some folk still think that the EU is a totalitarian regime and think a straw man and an ad hom is sufficient response to some facts and the following challenge

well i gave you the facts which ones of those make you say it is totalitiarian and ours is a better less autocratic system?

That by the way is from a none Daily Mail reader, do you accuse everyone who knows that you are incorrect on some of what you say of reading that rubbish paper.

no i use it for folk who repeat some frothy right wing slightly loony xenophobic stuff that runs counter to the actual evidence on the ground.

So does Binners read the Wail or is it just mt? I hope you two will enjoy the beers and cidres! But Mark will miss the lengthy re-buttals no doubt on the STW post scores!

So the extra “closed” period – is that to find a new solution (plan c) or for Gazprombank to complete its due diligence on Lailki or Bank of Cyprus? Perhaps both!

I’d imagine it’s a desperate measure to gain time for a solution, any solution…

Meanwhile in the real world… How would the UK cope if/when it happened here?

I guess it depends on what “it” is? Do you mean Cyprus bail-out/rescue/default/possible exit from € or do you mean the same thing happening in the UK?

A UK banking crisis. Yes I know things are different here, but not better…

Cone on JY. Calling people xenophobic and loonies for criticising the Euro and the EU is just ridiculous! its a bit like those crying anti-Semitic when anyone criticises the actions of the Israeli government . It’s daft, and its lazy!

Calling people xenophobic and loonies for criticising the Euro and the EU is just ridiculous!

TBF purporting to be left-wing whilst supporting the EU is equally ridiculous.

So it least there’s some consistency.

But Mark will miss the lengthy re-buttals no doubt on the STW post scores!

not sure he will but he may like the peace and quiet, so might you though 8)

Binners respectfully you are going on about anti democratic practice [ ignoring UK ones]and claiming it is a totalitarian regime…..this is a position that is laughable tbh and when challenged with facts you/they get ignored and folk insists it is still the case yet they can present no evidence of totalitarianism – be fair its is hyperbole if not “loony”

I find it hard to believe you think you are putting forward a well reasoned and well researched position that is factually accurate re democracy /totalitarianism.

Quality EL

Ernie, spot on and that’s what I really don’t get. Leaving aside whether Europe satisfies the criteria for and Optimim Currency Area (IMO, it doesn’t, hence my opposition to a fixed currency in Europe), it is strange that people with a LW political persuasion can support a construct that forces massive wage deflation and or unemployment on the bulk of its population. Very odd indeed!

Ohnohesback – massive question probably beyond here!

Not to mention making working class savers pay for the mistakes of bankers so that bond holders don’t have to take a hit! Eh comrade? 😉 You really couldn’t make it up

Reports that €4.5bn of deposits left Cypriot banks in the week prior to the announcement – friends in high places, or an amazing coincidence?

The cabinet?

Hello Junkyard, I apologies for for not having your great knowledge and experience of how EU law is brought about, framed and how this effects the Eurozone. I can only comment on my actual involvement on how EU law is formed and brought about by eurocrats and consultants acting for EU commissioners, they know nothing of the field they are trying to frame well meaning (possibly) laws and rules but then end up with a directive that does not do what was intended, this then gets passed by the EU commission and rubber stamped by the EU parliament based on what was intended not at the outset, not by what is contained in the directive. If you have the time take a look at the “ErP directive on the Eco design of energy using products”. A classic in wasted time for no actual gain in the understanding of electrically powered equipment (very well meaning though). I realise that this make me a xenophobe to you but to me it is an example of an opportunity missed and I’m trying to work on another that is hazardous industry related that will go the same way. It’s very exasperating and costly to many when laws that you (as outside specific industry related) may not be involved in on a day to day basis are so poorly understood by law makers and instigated. These are not headline laws but things that effect the way products are made, sold, documented etc. Some can be safety related, some very useful products that become illegal to sell even though they serve a purpose and are required in certain industries. One law in particular involves a mandatory prison term for non compliance without a definitive interpretation of what the law actually is.
So please forgive disagreeing with you, again I humbly bow to your greater understanding 🙂

Since I have rather stupidly allowed myself to get involved in this thread I apologies, now back to the Cyprus issue and some of the posts that seem to offer better insight than the bollocks that some of us spout. i shall now flouncing out. Must also mention that I’m now on the outside of several pints of a rather nice EPA.

Brinkmanship stakes rising today with ECB threatending, sorry “advising” that the Emergency Liquidity Assistance will only be considered if the EU-IMF program is in place. You do have to love:

“I don’t think the ECB is using threats,” Mr Dijsselbloem said. “The ELA facility can only be made available to banks that are [solvent]. There has to be at least the prospect in the near future of a programme of recapitalisation, of bringing these banks within a safe haven again.”

If a bank is solvent why would they need the ELA? The second sentence is also incompatible with the first! In those we trust……

Interesting idea floated in FT about the role the Turks should/could play:

http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/2013/03/21/guest-post-turkey-to-the-rescue/#axzz2OAfd9o3T

a bit of flaming in the blog afterwards!

xcgb – I hope you have contingency plans, looks like this could get messy if your cash is in BoC or Laiki

Looks like we’ve reached this point then?….

Emergency Liquidity Assistance will only be considered if the EU-IMF program is in place

Its laughable that the EU/ECB/IMF think they’re still in a position to be issuing threats ahem… advice. I think the Euro powers-that-be need to contain this situation a lot more than the Cypriots do. And they know it! Which is why Cyprus is calling the EU’s bluff.

It’ll be interesting to see what happens to the attitude of governments in the rest of Southern Europe now that somebodies had the balls to front up to the school bully, and told the Germans to **** off!

I am not sure there is much rationality on either side – people are being swept along by events as usual.

I know its childish, but I did giggle to see the name of the Governor of the Central Bank of Cyprus – “Panicos” Demetriades! By Monday, he may well be living up to his name. Reuters are reporting that the notes from the meeting are pointing to high levels of panic and emotions on both sides with now open talks of Cyprus leaving the €-zone. You have to love a Frenchman saying that “the Cypriot parliament is obviously too emotional and will not decide on anything.”, the ironing!

The Cypriots are now claiming that “we didn’t discuss a deposit haircut and we are not reverting to it.” Haircut? I though it was a tax? 😉

I thought it was theft.

Best thing for Cyprus to do is leave the EU, devalue their own currency, become the cheapest place in europe to holiday and rake in the tourist money….thus it was always so for places like Greece, Cyprus etc….who came up with the bonkers idea that they should play the same game as Germany?….did people ever think this would work?

Once they go other countries like Greece can start untangling themselves from the EU mess and leave too.

I thought it was theft.

LOL 😀

I’d like to know what they’re putting in the water out there, i’m sure if this was happening in France/Italy/here there would be riots in all the major cities.

Looks like the latest gamble is leave the lower deposits alone, hit the larger ones more and (oh) nationalise pension funds of semi public companies. The technical terms chosen will be interesting!

Best option outlined by Bucheit and Gulati is simply to covert all large deposits into CDs with 5-10 year maturities. Doesn’t solve the equity risk – but makes it easier to resolve – but alleviates the liquidity risks that will lead to the banks closing on Monday. Depositors ultimately get their money back (with interest) which is better than losing it all. Plus easier to argue against the theft accusations involved in the alternative. Are the players imaginative enough? We shall see.

Looks like old Karl Marx was right when he said that banks are institutions created for the systematic robbery of the people.

The ECB has now warned it will cease to fund Cypriot banks next Monday unless a deal is done. How firm their resolve and how strict the deadline remains to be seen.

It’ll be the usual 11th hour, cobbled together, lash up. So they can kick the can down the road for another month or so

Lets face it… they’ve had enough practice

that the Emergency Liquidity Assistance will only be considered if the EU-IMF program is in place.

right so you are about to spend a lot of cash re financing a bankrupt banking sector in a country with no money . So apparently it is utter madness and bullying to set some conditions on this. Can I safely assume that if the EU just gave it to them without any criteria or rules -you two would be happy and not criticise them.

Seriously what is so bad about them setting conditions on bailing them out/lending them money? Is there a bank that does not do this? Does the IMF not do this – will Russsia not do this?
No matter what they do you two will be hear to tell us why its wrong and undemocractic Bllody germans eh binners [ no xenophobia was involved in this post

PS rather amusing Ernie but i find you calling me out as some sort of pretend lefty reminiscient of the Monty Python Peoples front of Judae scene when they unite aginst the common enemy.
I think we established earlier political persuasion does not let you predict someoens view on the EU as for positive i said my position was that i did not know how I would vote and it somewhat traguc that simply posting the facts from Wikki about EU democracy is considered to be support – its just facts hence why folk have played me and not what I said since Iposted it. Have we really reached the point were bland facts on the EU are seen as being support have we really become that biased?

MT a reasonable post and I assume that it is very beurocratic if not quite an authoritarian regime

right so you are about to spend a lot of cash re financing a bankrupt banking sector in a country with no money country your inflexible monetary system has bankrupted

FTFY 😉

yes the 650% of GDP being in banking was the fault of the Euro
Without the Euro those economies which have no money would be doing just brilliantly

Good spot- I think you just earned your banking bonus for this year – Paid in pork scratching as usual 😉

If the rules of that club had been vigorously applied, Cyprus (and quite a few other states) would not have been allowed to join. Had euro membership been restricted to nations with the economic strength to join, it would probably have 6 – 8 members and be a huge success story.

Cyprus’s problems stem from the political decision to let it join the euro – you can’t blame the Bankers for that

Regards the IMF etc – Greece, Cyprus, Spain, and yes, you guessed it, the UK too, are not experiencing ‘austerity’, we are going through a reset to a more realistic level of economic activity commensurate with our actual ability to pay the bills, Only when the masses wake up to the truth that tooth fairy finance is no longer available, and politicians stop trying to sell it as the holy grail, will genuine and sustainable growth and prosperity occur!

Junkyard – Member
you two would be happy and not criticise them.

Really, what is this fixation with binners and me? Please play the ball not the men – its getting silly and boring others (as Zokes pointed out earlier). This seemingly endless desperation to score points/nit-pick is merely illustrating the difficulty that you seem to be having understanding what is going on here – earlier the concept of maturity transformation (which you start by condoning and later criticise) and now the ELA. Sort it out over the beer and cider.

The ELA is already providing emergency assistance to the Cypriot banks. Now I will sympathise with you that the love of transparency that goes through the Euro-system, means that you cannot measure and identify this (!) but the ECB has confirmed that they are currently supporting Cyprus’ banks via the ELA (my post above could have been clearer, I accept). The point that I made earlier is that this will now be stopped unless Cyprus agrees to the terms of the EU-IMF proposal. People can make their own minds up as to whether this is a “threat” or “advice”. The conclusion is the same.

There is nothing in my posts suggesting that conditions to a loan/funding should not be attached. That would be silly. Indeed the whole thread is about how does Cyprus raise the €5.8bn (‘the conditions’) that is required for the EU and IMF to release the funds it (Cyprus) requires to prevent a sovereign default.

Please, for the last time (hopefully) lets focus on the facts in front of us.

And who let the country with 650% of its GDP in banking join its common fixed currency? Did anyone bother to ask them first? Did anyone look at the books? Oh… I forgot… this is the EU. The organisation that has never ever had its accounts audited and signed off

As rattrap said, If they’d applied their own criteria (FFS!) then none of the Southern European counries would have joined the club. Italy, Spain and Portugal were nowhere near meeting the targets for entry. Never mind basket cases like Greece and Cyprus. They just conjured up some figures and made some vague noises about future compliance through some imagined economic growth

All this was absolutely inevitable. As many many people have pointed out for years. Also inevitable is the next crisis. And the next one. And the one after that. And the one after that. And the one after that. Until somebody actually addresses the fundamental problems, instead of just pouring more and more money down the tubes, and hoping for the best.

rattrap – Member
Only when the masses wake up to the truth that tooth fairy finance is no longer available, and politicians stop trying to sell it as the holy grail, will genuine and sustainable growth and prosperity occur!

Is there such a thing as endlessly sustainable growth though? Even Redwoods stop growing…

That to me is a bigger fairy tale.

what he ^ said.

we live on a planet of finite resources, and a diminishing individual share of those resources. There’s no such thing as sustainable growth, it’s impossible.

borrowing so much money that you can only afford your debt *if* you get that payrise/economic growth is insane.

and that’s what we’ve done.

awesome.