Cypriot bail out

Breaking news: The Cypriot parliament has rejected the EU plan.

Interesting times indeed…

And JY called me Nigel Farage anyway! That’s way worse than Stalin or Hitler 😆

I am not at all in favour of the spiv-casino style of banking, but lendees must also shoulder SOME of the blame.

No one has ever been forced to accept a credit card at gunpoint.

what is fair about taxing deposits in banks whilst leaving all other forms of wealth tax free?

Inheritance tax
Capital gains tax
tax on the interest from the bank
I assume their are more
However it is a good point but I assume they tax banks because it is banks were it houses they would tax houses etc.

Its a broad brush i have never denied it and it is not fair to some [ again not denied]
Personall I would be delighted to tax wealth [ mmm what would Stalin do]but I lack the electoral manadate to be able to enforce it and redistribute wealth fairly.
I dont think the Dule of westminster would like it but we would have some excellent new trails to play on 😉

So what happens now? Cyprus goes Russian? A total meltdown? Or will the EU just wait for the Cypriots to come back begging for mercy?

Think binners is right, Russia will buy it as a med port for their forces

JY – to save boring zokes, myself and others, I am going to refrain from picking up on all the points bar 2 – this in not just about the banks. In this case, as in Iceland and Ireland, the fate of the banks and Cyprus are completely intertwined. The amount of money Cyprus needs to rescue the banks is > than its GDP. This is a true crisis. The second, on the binners and I dont mention other parties, I would merely draw your attention to:

teamhurtmore – Member
Remember, someone (by all account a combination of centre-left Germans, Finns and Cypriot politicians) chose to apply the bail-in to everyone despite the €100k threshold (the murky stuff is to understand each party’s motives).

and the fact that the FT reports that Barosso was prepared to leave the IMF out of the final push. But its obvious that the Cypriots are involved themselves. They need to reverse engineer €5.8bn to get their cash. Do this exclusively from the >€100k camp and their future as an offshore-banking centre comes under threat. That is very clear. Hence the comment about balancing the EU and Russia at the same time!

P.S. I extended M Lagardere the courtesy of including her in the euro-elite. It would be a disservice not to.

That should be good – we’ll have British Sovereign base area’s on one side of the Island, Russian naval port on the other, Turkey retaining the Northern half of the island, and Syria has just gone Chemical

What could possibly go wrong ? 😯

Buy it? Given Putins way of doing business, I’d be amazed if he doesn’t technically own it already!!!!

it is probably just one of his “friends” who own it – lets hope they dont cross him and end up in court

I’d imagine its easier to bump someone off in Cyprus than Chelsea

Oh…. Erm…. Actually…..

Re Hitler and Stalin (admittedly now well off-topic).

I think most modern-day spin doctors would have them both portrayed as plucky provincials who fought inherent prejudice and snobbery to rise to the top. A real wholesome tale of the triumph of an everyman over the elite.

Cynicism really knows no bounds!

As for the Greek half of Cyprus, I seem to recall that the Turks were quite keen on it. Maybe they should put in a bid?

All in jest of course.

Back on topic. Attracting investment (whether speculative or just for security) is a matter of trust. Any country that does this is going to a one-off well, and their credibility and future prospects would be bleak even after the one-off windfall.

A useful site and source of knowledge. (and you thought I was a doomster…)

http://www.zerohedge.com

It is the little man would saves with the bank, not the hedge fund manager or russian oligarch.

Really? 25% of Cypriot bank accounts are held by Russians totalling 80 billion euros including the six Russian steel companies and most of the oligarchs.It seems to me that an increase in taxation on just these accounts would clear the Cyprus debt no problem.I reckon that the biggest of these are the people/companies who are most likely to have already shifted their money so will avoid it for the most part and those with relatively modest savings of over 20 thousand euros will get hit instead,which according to the tax dodging rumours of ordinary Cypriots mentioned on here is no great surprise.

Well, Newsnight was sobering on all of this…. 🙁

I think i’m going to move my savings out of the EU area and just keep my current account open, i’ll move over whats left each month to wharever i choose to open a new savings account (Channel Islands, Swiss etc etc)….the duplicitous politicians in the EU are out of control.
At which point did the general population become serfs for politicians?….these idiots need to be reminded that they are public servants and can be voted out as easily as they were voted in.

A wise American political commentator once said that it doesnt matter who is in government, just vote them out the next time round….thus ensuring they never get too comfortable and giving them a stark reminder every 4-5 years that they are there to do our bidding and not vice versa.

It would (almost) be worth the catastrophic consequences of seeing most people withdraw their funds from EU banks and either keep cash at home or invest outside the EU….bring the whole crappy system down, force the toxic banks to fail and leave the corrupt EU with no banks to borrow from….a massive wiping clean of a very dirty and stinky slate.

Sadly though most people are too stupid to take any kind of action, the common or garden Brit is more interested in when the next series of X-Factor starts than making sure their financial future is safe.

hey are there to do our bidding

Lol.. they aren’t, really. Can you imagine what would happen if you let the average idiot in the street actually run the country? Good one 🙂

bring the whole crappy system down

Please don’t – I rather like having a job.

these idiots need to be reminded that they are public servants and can be voted out as easily as they were voted in.

They can’t though. That’s the whole point. And the fundamental problem of the Eurozone. All decisions are taken by the European Commission. They aren’t elected. They are appointed. By themselves. You’ve as much chance of voting them out as you have Kim Jong Un. Also note the revolving door policy between the European Commission, ECB and the IMF, to see where their true interests lie, and who’s interests they actually represent.

Hence their supremely arrogant behavior. The MEP’s are just there to basically rubber stamp the Commission’s dictats, and pick up there enormous salaries and bulging tax-free expenses claims in return.

Ultimately the Parliament* is there purely as a fig-leaf for one of the most undemocratic, corrupt and self-serving systems of government on the planet. Which goes a long way to explaining the mess the Eurozone is in. Zero accountability at the top, as they answer to no electorate.

* The word is used figuratively in this instance and does not imply any actual democratic accountability, as that term would be commonly recognised by anyone living in an actual democracy

We live in a totalitarian European union and have done for some time. Of course if anyone stands up in this country to point that out they are compared to some sort of racist xenophobe. People take the piss out Farage and UKIP (he and some of them are nutters) but there is truth in most of the objections raised about the way the EU goes about governing us. If you have ever been involved in the law making that covers the Eurozone you’d know what I mean, they never get it wrong so never need to change anything at all. Even if what the force on us is unsafe, my experience has so appalled in the last few year I’m almost tempted to vote Farage as it seems to be the only way to register an anger at the EU itself (I’m resisting hard).

This discussion has been very interesting so far especially the informative posts from teamhurtmore. It is also good to be reminded by some that a socialists wants to use our money and not theirs.

It’s time take my cash and buy a forest.

It looks as if the Cypriots are trying to get the Russians to bail them out, with the ongoing political influence that is implied. So in addition to permanently undermining confidence in the eurozone banking system the eurocrats’ incompetence may also give russia a geo-strategic influence on eurpoe’s south-eastern corner.

Well effing done!

We live in a totalitarian European union and have done for some time.

I don’t think you know much about totalitarianism.

It is certainly undemocratic and has a nasty creeping authoritarian streak.

Lol.. they aren’t, really. Can you imagine what would happen if you let the average idiot in the street actually run the country? Good one

Aye imagine no tax on fuel duty etc it would be funny for about a month

All decisions are taken by the European Commission. They aren’t elected. They are appointed. By themselves

No that is just wrong

One of the 27 is the Commission President (currently José Manuel Durão Barroso) proposed by the European Council and elected by the European Parliament. The Council then appoints the other 26 members of the Commission in agreement with the nominated President, and then the 27 members as a single body are subject to a vote of approval by the European Parliament.

so they are elected then- yes it could be fairer[ what system could not?] but I dont recall voting for a UK cabinet nor it being subject to parliamentary approval – the PM can [ legally anyway] do as they please – if the crown lets them anyway.
I was not aware of our parliament say voting on our representative at the UN for example but neither of these seems to get the same frothing about unaccountability etc.

All decisions are taken by the European Commission.

Again this is just wrong and it is not accurate to claim the parliamnet a rubber stamp for them and they can quite literally do as they please. This is the problem those who oppose it say things like this as if they were true or facts and doe snotlook inward at what we have here. The UK democracy fails to seperate the executive from the legislature but yet you are happy with this – our govt [ given no constitution] can literally do as they please but the EU cannot. More importantly the commission – more like a US president- can propose legislation but it needs to be passed by the parliament to become law
it is worth noting that

Powers are more restricted than most national executives, in part due to the Commission’s lack of power over areas like foreign policy

Again dont let the facts get in the way of your polemic

The MEP’s are just there to basically rubber stamp the Commission’s dictats,

Yes it is amazing how often our MP’s vote against the government and dont go along with the leaders of their party- What once per decade if that? Anyone last time the givt was defeated in a whipped parliamentary vote – 70’s??

Ultimately the Parliament* is there purely as a fig-leaf for one of the most undemocratic, corrupt and self-serving systems of government on the planet….*The word is used figuratively in this instance and does not imply any actual democratic accountability, as that term would be commonly recognised by anyone living in an actual democracy

yes why can they not have a monarch as head of state with the powers to choose election dates, pick a PM/govt and then have the executive drawn from the legislature and a check on this power made up of peers of the realm appointed by the hereditary principle or from political patronage who can only delay legislation [ not if economic]- pah these europeans have nothing on our fantastic democracy do they which is clearly beyond criticism.

but there is truth in most of the objections raised about the way the EU goes about governing us.

yes lots of truth in these crticisms – clearly they are factual points and not motivated by politics.
Its is weird how everyone does this as if our own system is somethow a paragon of democratic accountability where free thinking MP’s hold the PM to account 😕

It is also good to be reminded by some that a socialists wants to use our money and not theirs.

I think they want the money to be spread out equally – i assume the EU is not socialist and they seem happy to use” our money “to fund bank bails outs. IIRC thwere was unanimity amongst the right wing about this – not many socialists in europe tbh and unlikely they weild any actual power.
You are free to dislike Europe , the EU the commisoners whatever but if you wish to argue try using the facts in the ground rather than Daily Mail type hysteria and distortion of reality to portray it as some sort of dictatorial unelected unaccountable body – you can make this point about it but you can do this just as easily about our own democracy.

molgrips – Member

We live in a totalitarian European union and have done for some time.

I don’t think you know much about totalitarianism.

Erm…. well the definition goes thus:

Totalitarianism (or totalitarian rule) is a political system in which the state holds total authority over the society and seeks to control all aspects of public and private life whenever necessary

Can you point out if we’ve missed anything about the Eurozone there Molly. Because it seem to tick all the boxes to me. This being the same EU that imposes leaders on ‘independent’ countries if they fail to elect ‘their’ candidate. And which in referendums (can you believe they’ve the audacity to still use the word), the electorates opinion is ignored until they deliver the required result. And we’ll micro-manage the entire financial system from Brussels, regardless of the catastrophic consequences.

Just because they’re not shooting people in the street (yet!) I think the Eurozone presently is the dictionary definition of a totalitarian regime.

Can you point out how it isn’t? Because I’m struggling to see one shred of democratic accountability

The UK democracy fails to seperate the executive from the legislature but yet you are happy with this

Am I? I don’t recall saying a single positive word about any aspect of the way the UK is governed. Its deeply flawed, yet manages to look like a idealised democratic Utopia next to Brussels!

We have had a house in Spain for about 10 years and keep the minimum amount of money we can in the Spanish bank account.
I didn’t trust the Spanish banking system then and i don’t trust it now.All the other ex pats i know out there also keep very little in Spanish accounts.
The Spanish bank regularly helps itself to money out of our account,citing reasons such as a charity donation or credit card fee.
They grudgingly put the money back when you complain,but you have to be really attentive and scrutinise the statements.

So it is an interesting prospect that the future of the €, in it’s current format, could lie in the hands of Putin. What an odd world!

Indeed! Who needs missiles when you have their money?

It is worrying how the defence of the Euro has succeeded in reigniting previously dormant tensions and power struggles.

In some ways it’s bizarre that so much hangs on a “relatively” paltry €5.8bn, even if this represents a gross simplification of what is going on!

It was amusing (in a sad way) when the Minister on Newsnight stated that plans were already in place/being considered to start printing pounds. Paxman, blurted in, “what you are going to start printing £”. He must have felt a little silly when the minister corrected him and said, “No Cypriot pounds.” Message to Paxo – engage brain first!!!

If Cyprus leaves/is pushed out of the euro it’d be the first crack in the dam. It would also show the eurosolidarity for the farce that it is.

Maybe Dave needs to have a quick rethink about things in light of the last week 😆

Erm…. well the definition goes thus:

Totalitarianism (or totalitarian rule) is a political system in which the state holds total authority over the society and seeks to control all aspects of public and private life whenever necessary
Yes ok I agree with that = good start but it wont last 😉

Can you point out if we’ve missed anything about the Eurozone there Molly. Because it seem to tick all the boxes to me.

Well of course it does for you as you hate them and your reasons are flawed. Its no better or nor worse than any other “democracy” and suffers because folk object by saying things that are just not true. once said often enough folk start to believe it. notice no one has pulled me up on the facts I gave nor changed their mind due to this.

This being the same EU that imposes leaders on ‘independent’ countries if they fail to elect ‘their’ candidate.

Well only if you ignore what actually happened and spin it to distortion did this happen – its a reasonable criticism to make if not somewhat over egged – its not exactly iraqi regime change they did now is it – like what we did. The IMF does the same – this is whathappens when folk lend you loads of money they “blackmail ” you into doing things in return – do you think Russia will lend them all that money fo rnowt in return? It is true of all agencies not just the EU biut iof course you ignore that for they are totalitarian

And which in referendums (can you believe they’ve the audacity to still use the word), the electorates opinion is ignored until they deliver the required result.

Fair point – why dont we have a vote on capital punishment?
That was rather undemocratic to be fair and the leaders are definetly ahead of the populus in their desire to integrate.

And we’ll micro-manage the entire financial system from Brussels, regardless of the catastrophic consequences.

Yes everywhere is doing well where it is not micro managed by EU [ cheers Gideon cannot wait to read about the growth and the debt reduction- they have caused all of this global slump all of it

Just because they’re not shooting people in the street (yet!) I think the Eurozone presently is the dictionary definition of a totalitarian regime.

Respectfully your are taking your hyperbole to stellar levels now

Can you point out how it isn’t? Because I’m struggling to see one shred of democratic accountability

yes I could and have but you wont listen.

I don’t recall saying a single positive word about any aspect of the way the UK is governed. Its deeply flawed, yet manages to look like a idealised democratic Utopia next to Brussels!

yes johnny foreigner does it so much worse than we do as a quiclk analysis of the democracy would show 😉 and 😕

If Cyprus leaves/is pushed out of the euro it’d be the first crack in the dam. It would also show the eurosolidarity for the farce that it is.

They [cypriot politicians]are pretty clear about the fact they dont want to leave whatever those outside the zone think – apparently those who did not join becaus ethey thought i t wa sflawed still think it is flawed and off course totalitarian in natur e- well who would not take this reasonable position in light of the evidence 😯

molgrips – Member
We live in a totalitarian European union and have done for some time.
I don’t think you know much about totalitarianism.

Aye you are right I obviously don’t but I do know that I don’t live in a democratic Europe. I suspect that you get the general point I was trying to make though. Unless you have no idea on how law making works in the Eurozone.

well i gave you the facts which ones of those make you say it is totalitiarian and ours is a better less autocratic system?

the thing with integration is it is a very slow process to change the hearts and minds of folk with some obvious teething issues and folk looking after their own – dave on not doing a bankers wage cap for example and stopping all reforms as the city is so important to our national interest. France on agricultural reforms there are examples from each country/political persuassion to be fair
In the UK we have had a union for some time here and even here the process of integration is not complete and [ given devolution one could argue never likely to be more than it is now]. Indeed some in northern england and other regions feel over run by the south and by London centric policies.
The arguments used against the EU work against any system tbh and are not something that can only be used against the euro land.
we have a system to govern 500 million folk in 27 countries so it is not that surprising that there is some discontent.

I find these threads strange thb and hand on heart I do not know which way I would vote in a EU referendum but the vitrol and poor arguments used to justfy it is quite shocking for what is a well educated audience.
I realise i come across as some sort of pro EU fanatic but i am only trying to counter the vitrol with the facts.
i dont think it is going well 😐

the thing with integration is it is a very slow process to change the hearts and minds of folk with some obvious teething issues

Teething issues?! teething issues?! 😯

For Gods sake JY! You constantly make this ridiculous assumption that to think the Euro as a currency a stupid, always destined to fail idea, and the present state of the EU woeful, means that you’re Anti-European!!! It doesn’t!! It means you object to the present cobbled together, unnacountable, self-serving mess, which is going to end up bankrupting a continent

Here’s a couple of articles on the shambles and total absence of leadership at the top of the EU. Not faxed through to me by Nigel, but from that rabid, hysterical, foaming at the mouth, right-wing, anti-European tabloid The Guardian:

Cyprus bailout shows European policy elite has learned nothing from crisis

The fatal flaw in the eurozone’s not-so-cunning plan for Cyprus

So bank depositors in Cyprus would be obliged to pony up one euro for every two provided by the European Union and the International Monetary Fund, with the levy imposed across the board. Cyprus was a special case, it was insisted, and therefore there would be no knockon effects to the rest of the eurozone.

The notion that the Cypriot parliament would reject the proposal was not factored into the calculations, a fatal flaw in what one City analyst compared to one of the “cunning plans” conjured up by Baldrick in the Blackadder series.

means that you’re Anti-European!!! It doesn’t!! It means you object to the present cobbled together, unnacountable, self-serving mess, which is going to end up bankrupting a continent

your unbridled enthusaism is shining through in every post Binners.
Pperhaps we should go on a ride and just argue about this in the pub afterwards..you with an honest pint of bitter and me with 500 ml of cidre. 😉

I disagree with what you say – fair point re teething problems though its a bit more than that but integration is never easy – you are on the Scotland thread for example and that is hundreds of years later.
as for whether it fails or not it still remains the case that if they refuse to let it fail it wont fail. The issue will be whether they will pay the price [ or the electorate are willing to pay the price]

In this case the cypriots have three options
1. Bankruptcy
2. Get in bed with Putin
3. EU/IMF bailout

I am not sure the Euro has been causal in this rather it was the ludicrous lending rates as a % of the GDP that has caused it coupled with greeces inability to tax it citizens [ and possibly cyprus given some anecdotal posting on here] and pay the piper. Well and they probably lied [creative accounts] to join in the first place
If it happend in the euroland you balme the euro but it is more complicated as we have not exactly done well of late etiher and have done some bank bailing out ourselves

I am chuckling at your [joke fury] reaction to teething issues – it was not meant like that [ to get a reaction] but fair point

Lets go for the ride and pub option 😀

Junkyard, your belief in the way thinks are supposed to happen in Europe is touching. It restores my faith in human nature, we’ll believe anything if it’s called the right name and we are told it often enough.

That by the way is from a none Daily Mail reader, do you accuse everyone who knows that you are incorrect on some of what you say of reading that rubbish paper.

Which of the totalitarian EU’s directives/laws would you reverse?