Cuts – Union knee jerk response or last line of defence against the Torries?

There is no question that some cuts are needed, lets face it a £700bn deficit is not exactly a healthy thing to have.
However we are as someone else said a comparitively low tax country in comparison to many ok I know its a wiki. Sadly the simple fact is that there is a huge amount of waste in the country particularly public sector (ok ok I know there is some in the private sector but we cover that by buying products they supply). I think the potential 25% cuts would be bonkers but I don't think they would dare go that far, the coalition will collapse. But i think 10% is to be expected, and I think that the unions are going to piss a lot of people off, I work in the private sector and we have had -6% pay cut for the last 18 months. So when I hear people whining about pay freezes etc it gets right on my tits (I know this isn't totally the issue at the moment but still.

We'll at least it'll force the government into another round of curbing the unions power, last time the right to secondary picketing etc. went, be interresting to see wht happens this time, especially as union membership is significantly down on previous levels.

Yeah hopefully there will be no unions left at all soon and we can get back to the nice productive Victorian standards of workers rights etc – can't wait!

A somewhat paraphrased quote from Obama;

"I’ve never believed that government’s role is to create jobs or prosperity….I believe it’s the drive and the ingenuity of our entrepreneurs, our small businesses; the skill and dedication of our workers – that’s made us the wealthiest nation on Earth. I believe it’s the private sector that must be the main engine for our recovery.

You mean like the typical Labour MP, who has kids in private school, or a house in a good catchment area funded for by the taxpayer, but vehemently defends the rights of everyone else's to go to shite comps?

Yep, A typical MP who belonged to a party following tory policies.

I'm not sure I like these unelected lobby groups championing civil disobediance, surely their whole purpose is to look after their members, not try and start riots.

But you are happy with unelected lobby groups who whispering in the ears of MP's and ministers? I find it hilarious that some people here are talking about unions like its the 1970's again. You are targeting the wrong group.

"that’s made us the wealthiest nation on Earth.

That really should be "thats made SOME of us wealthy in one of the most socially divided nations on earth."

one of the most socially divided nations on earth

Dont talk such complete and utter shite!

I suggest you go and visit India, see the social divisions between Brahmin and Dalit, and then come back with a sense of perspective!

I find it hilarious that some people here are talking about unions like its the 1970's again.

Listening to some of the rhetoric and tub thumping at the TUC today it would appear the unions think it's the 1970's again.

Yeah hopefully there will be no unions left at all soon and we can get back to the nice productive Victorian standards of workers rights etc – can't wait!

That's a load of drivel, give the politicans a little bit of credit, society has changed massively, trying to compare reeling the excesses of a minority (I mean the unions) with Victorian working conditions is just fatuous.

If your salary in 2006 were £20,000 p.a., and your salary in 2010 were £20,000 p.a., would you say that your salary had been "cut"? Of course not, or, rather, you might say that, but you would be talking more nonsense. IF there had been inflation over that period, your purchasing power would have been cut, but not your salary.

I see only a semantic difference her. If you cut my purchasing power or cut my salary the efecct is the same. I have less to spend. I m sure you will refute this in your usual understated matey style,

lets face it a £700bn deficit is not exactly a healthy thing to have

Govt spending is £700 billion for 2011-12 so no idea where you got that figure from.

That's a load of drivel, give the politicans a little bit of credit, society has changed massively, trying to compare reeling the excesses of a minority (I mean the unions) with Victorian working conditions is just fatuous.

I think you , somewhat hilariously, missed his point. You are correct society[working conditions] has changed mainly due to the union securing rights for the workers that were not freely given by employers or politicians. The TUC represnt 6.5 million only slightly less than the lib dem vote share. I also hate the excesses of a minority …bankers, multinationals, non doms, tax avoiders etc.

No I think you've missed the point, whilst unions have undoubtedly contributed to improved working conditions so have many other people, including shock horror right wing politicians. The unions have no more right to claim to have changed society for the better than many other groups. The downside is the unions have also had some pretty negative effects on society, anyone remember the miners strike, not all Thatchers fault.

What ever happens it'll be interresting to see what pans out. My prediction is the unions will find they aren't anywhere near as powerful as they like to think. Not sure they actually represent that many of their members very well either. That question will be answered though when the calls for strikes get heeded or ignored.

whilst unions have undoubtedly contributed to improved working conditions so have many other people, including shock horror right wing politicians

I await the long list of right wing politicians who battled for worker improvements. Cant work out why the Labour party formed from the Unions if we had so many benevolent right wingers actively seeking to improve the lot of the common worker. Incredibly ungrateful for all the efforts of the right winger eh. I mean you educate them[not the women obviously] , kill less of them at work and give them Sunday off [to go to Church] and this is how they treat you.

Not sure they actually represent that many of their members very well either

Not sure you are an expert on this- you in a Union? 99.9999% of union work is not strike related. It is to support their members when the members ask for help. Given the members vote for strikes they probably do better than politicians do in representing their voters interests- see iraq war and a multitude of other areas where the leaders of political parties ignore the wishes of the electorate. A union cannot leggaly do this can they?

Dont talk such complete and utter shite!

I suggest you go and visit India, see the social divisions between Brahmin and Dalit, and then come back with a sense of perspective!

Perhaps you should go to india and look at the living conditions of an emerging economic power and compare it with the worlds only "super power". A country that is supposedly so wealthy that while it excludes large sections of its population from prospering from that wealth, feeds them the dream that is the American dream. But I expect nothing less from a country that has been run by right wingers for so long.

What ever happens it'll be interresting to see what pans out. My prediction is the unions will find they aren't anywhere near as powerful as they like to think.

So why the 70's rhetoric? I can't understand why you find unions, the people in the past that fought for your rights, such a threat these days.

The biggest threat to the UK is the financial sector and that oh so unfortunate nasty business of crashing the entire financial system. Now don't you think it's time to realise that they like the unions in the 70's have become just too powerful?

The unions have no more right to claim to have changed society for the better than many other groups.

LOL ! 😀

I'm afraid the drains on my road were blocked when Britain was in recession in the late eighties then blocked again in the boom times of the nineties. They were blocked in the noughties and show no signs of being unblocked in 2010. Floods downhill cause regular chaos.

Public sector cuts fill me with fear.

Satellites, aircraft bits, scientific instruments, lots of cars – and a load more stuff besides. Most of what we make is high tech.

We make cars… Cars for export? And these are british owned companies?

😮

Forget the economy lets bring back TVR 😛 Lets gamble on that instead of futures in the city.

F1 yeah weve got a lot of teams here (mostly foreign owned?)… but will F1 remain a popular sport? Is it popular? Is it declining? A lot motorshports have been hit hard by the recession – sponsorship gone.

In 2003, manufacturing industry accounted for 16% of national output in the UK and for 13% of employment. This is a continuation of the steady decline in the importance of this sector to the British economy since the 1960s, although the sector is still important for overseas trade, accounting for 83% of exports in 2003. Manufacturing is an important sector of the modern British economy and there is a considerable amount of published research on the subject of the factors affecting its growth and performance. After the 2010 Recession it is one of the fastest growing sectors of the economy – experiencing a mini-boom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_Kingdom#Manufacturing

Yes its wikipedia.. fred might have written it

And these are british owned companies?

No, but so what? Thousands of British people work there, and I'm sure the shareholders come from all over the world.

Unions seem to be run mainly by lunatics clinging to discredited ideologies. I've no problem with organised labour per se, but I do have a problem with them getting involved in politics, funding political parties and demanding to have their interests heard over everyone else's.

As things stand at the moment, Unions effectively exclude all but Communists and charlatans.

Tron get a grip that is just hysterical gibberish
It seems reasonable that if the unelected Queeen can have a weekly meeting with the pm that a group representing 6.5 million people is also allowed a voice/platform in this democracy. Do we really have 6.5 million communists /chrlatans voting for idiots or just 6.5 million people who dont agree with your view of unions?

i fear that my (largely) irrational hatred of unions is about to go into overdrive.

Hurrah, proof if proof were ever needed – even Fidel finally admits that socialism isn't working

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/09/fidel-castro-cuba-economic-model

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/14/cuba-privatisation-state-job-cuts

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11291267

as the BBC says – Cuba has announced radical plans to lay off huge numbers of state employees.

The Cuban labour federation said more than a million workers, or one in five Cubans, would eventually lose their jobs. Those laid off will be encouraged to become self-employed or join new private enterprises, on which some of the current restrictions will be eased.

President Raul Castro has said he the state's role in the economy has to be reduced. About 85% of the official workforce is employed by the state. Analysts say it is the biggest private sector shift since the 1959 revolution.

See that, Cuba's reigning in of the state and reduction in spending is more radical than Britains!

In other news: Retired civil service chief and former permanent secretary to the treasury under Labour, Lord Turnbull says that :

“public spending got too big relative to the productive resources of the economy, by error”

http://network.civilservicelive.com/pg/pages/view/497934/

a group representing 6.5 million people

I don't think they do represent people though. They have their own political aims, and people join them because they think they'll get a few days of now and again and they'll get more from their employers. Whether they deserve it or not.

I like the idea of unions but I don't like what they've turned into. Their members just want want want, and their bosses use this to try and shaft business apparently with some kind of malicious motive. And before you lay into me I am a socialist at heart.

Q.

What will happen to the unemployed people? how will they pay their bills?
Are there jobs for them to go to?

Or just **** 'em???

I don't know the figures but I do know if people lose their jobs what it is like to be unable to support their families etc.

If there was plenty of work in the U.K. then I would say sure! make the cuts and let them do other jobs in the private sector.

But nobody really gives a crap about anyone else unless they are affected themselves.

I hope the private sector is able to provide the jobs for them.

How many union leaders would describe themselves as Communists? How many have worked with far left parties? How many unions could be described as anything but to the left of the Labour party?

The fact is, that unions represent their members interests at the cost of everyone else, and their membership is left leaning, and they have left wing political objectives. As a result, they effectively filter out anyone who isn't left wing from their membership.

If I could be any animal I think I would be a Red Kite.

Unions seem to be run mainly by lunatics clinging to discredited ideologies. I've no problem with organised labour per se, but I do have a problem with them getting involved in politics

Yes Tron, look at all these nutty pinko policies that the trade unions have lobbied for (and achieved under Labour)

The introduction of statutory trade union recognition

– Health and safety legislation

– The right to fair representation at work

– The right to paid maternity, paternity and adoptive leave

– The Working Time Directive

– The National Minimum Wage

Bastards eh?

As things stand at the moment, Unions effectively exclude all but Communists and charlatans.

😆

Have you ever actually had a job tron?

The fact is, that unions represent their members interests at the cost of everyone else

Yeah, see the list above – all only of benefit to union members obviously. 🙄

You are posting increasingly hysterical nonsense.

Your are a very confused one then molgrips.
As sated the memebre elect their leaders, elect their reps and EVERY strike has to be approved by a ballot so the "leaders" cannot really do what the members dont want ? People keep claiming they dont represent the members but could you cite an example of them ignoring their members? It would be illegal in terms of strike action and the members would just leave and the Union would have no money.

Or alternately:

Distorted member's working conditions and contracts so heavily that many employers use temps for perm roles, to the benefit of recruitment agencies.

As for the Working Time Directive, it's worthless outside of a unionised environment.

Stopped Blair from sorting out public sector pension funding.

Now it seems they're trying to pick a fight with the government. All lovely stuff.

I don't see what relevance it would have, but yes, I've had several jobs.

I like the idea of unions but I don't like what they've turned into. Their members just want want want, and their bosses use this to try and shaft business apparently with some kind of malicious motive. And before you lay into me I am a socialist at heart.

Sounds like you spend too long listening to the right wing press view of unions rather than the reality.

As a result, they effectively filter out anyone who isn't left wing from their membership.

What the airline pilot union is full of people to the left of the Labour party, The National Farmers Union is a radically left wing organisation, The BMA [British Medical Association wants communism and they want it now.
You are posting increasingly hysterical nonsense + 1
I am enjoying it though so dont stop

As if I read the right wing press!

My only experience of unions comes from 4 years in a unionised workplace. Where everyone came out on strike against cuts, but most people I talked to only did it because they fancied a day off (seriously).

And you know, sometimes cuts are necessary. Things change, organisations move on, I'm afraid. (this was pre credit crunch btw)

tron – so you are ignoring all the positives – have a problem with the minimum wage?

Is this going to be like in the Ricky Hatton thread where you were proved wrong so just gave up?

What the airline pilot union is full of people to the left of the Labour party

Have a look at the major unions. All pretty left wing…

tron thats rubbish our union, of which im not a member- but i have been to meetings is just full of very dull usually older naturally right leaning people who are bitter about our pension fund going under

So have you ever had a job tron? 😆

have a problem with the minimum wage?

I'm agnostic.

The major trade unions are staffed by people with a political axe to grind. Take Bob Crow as an extreme example. He calls himself a Communist/Socialist 🙄

As for the Working Time Directive, it's worthless outside of a unionised environment

So what you are saying is that employers ignore the law of the land unless they are unionised, organised and make them obey the law. Seems dreadfull dont we all want law breaking employers evryone knows they are the best. Up the criminal I say

Have a look at the major unions. All pretty left wing…

So you accept that not all unions are to the left of the labour party then Tahnks.

tron – have you ever had a job?

Seems dreadfull dont we all want law breaking employers evryone knows they are the best.

What I am saying is that unions would be a lot more helpful if they were radically different to the way they are now. Remove the left wing rhetoric and counter-productive attitude problem and they might actually get back to decent membership figures, which would mean they could help a lot more people.

It's perfectly legal to sign out of the WTD as far as I'm aware.

Grum, have you ever been awarded a qualification in English? Because I've mentioned that several posts up…

What is a union for?

to quote King arthur:

…It also has a second function that is not generally understood or accepted by the public at large, and that is to bring an end to the capitalist society in which we live and create a socialist system of society.

Grum, have you ever been awarded a qualification in English? Because I've mentioned that several posts up…

You are failing to point out that was an edit. 🙄

Having a paper round doesn't count however. I just find it pretty funny that a 'scummy student' claims to know so much about the world of work.