Creaking square taper crank

I have a pair of White Industries ENO cranks on my bike with a Shimano bottom bracket. When I built it up I put a good dose of Finish Line Teflon grease. They ran fine for a while but then started creaking a bit. Tightening the crank bolts up didn’t seem to help.
I stripped them down, cleaned and re-greased this week, and they stopped creaking for a wee while and then started again.
Any suggestions? Different type of grease maybe? Is it just that these cranks don’t get on with Shimano bb’s?

Copper grease and the correct torque. If they’ve ever been over-torqued you may never fix the problem completely.

Gas fitters PTFE tape – around the taper?

Have you tried no grease? My square taper cranks squeaked so I took the cranks off and cleaned the axle and square fitting on the cranks with White Lightening aerosol degreaser and re-fitted. They’ve been fine since.

some square tapers you just can’t stop creaking (eg Middleburn). S’one of the reasons I’m happy to be using HTII

nuke – you may never get them off again!

Some people have had reasonable results with bearing retainer compound.

nuke – you may never get them off again!

Pfffft…a minor inconvienence that I’m sure an angle grinder can resolve 😉

I thought with square taper cranks no grease was the right way? It may be the actual bb thats creaking in the shell. Clean the threads and re-grease the bb. Check your pedal threads are greased, just dont grease the tapers on the bb axle.

squaretapers are supposed to be fitted by mechanics who may have dirty greasey hands ..those your supposed to run your fingers over the tapers and thats the right ammount of grease needed…..according to mr campagnolo any way

by greasing the taper “fully” your going to push the crank on too far ….

and dezb only badly fitted square taper cranks creak .

Lol at the urban crank myths!

You can use grease or not bother. In both cases your cranks won’t go on too far and should be easily removeable.

Op have you checked chainring bolts, pedal threads, bb threads?

I have no problems with creaking on either Shimano or Middleburn Sq. tapers.

Do not grease the taper. Do grease the crank bolt and also some grease on the back face of the head of the bolt.

traiol_rat, square taper cranks fitted correctly can creak. As i proved to myself last week. They hadn’t been off the axle for 6 months and the daily muck and grime of communiting had caused some corrosion between the axle and crank tapers. A quick clean and polishing up of the tapers followed by a wipe down with a greasy rag and job done!

by greasing the taper “fully” your going to push the crank on too far ….

Sorry but that’s bllx, if correct torque is applied.

How on earth will greasing make the taper smaller or the hole bigger so they ‘go on too far’?

Anyway, they don’t need greasing. I always used to just make sure mine were cleaned up with my general oily bike towel before assembly (much like the mechanics oily fingers above I guess) and never had any creaking or problems (other than rounding cranks off) in my years of square taper use.

If you want to speak to the font of all knowledge on square taper bb’s give Cliff at Royce a call.

fliesinmy eyes is spot on,plus a bit more according to the man himself:

NO GREASE on the tapers
Torque them when fitting
Torque them again after a spin up the road
torque them again after an hours ride
Torque them again after a long ride
If they make a ticking noise Cliff will tell you they are ‘talking to you’, they need re-torquing
Do, however, grease the end bolts as they need to spin freely to apply the correct force.

Smiffy, the crank will go on further with lubrication and enlarge the hole in the crank arm. Ouch!

some square tapers you just can’t stop creaking (eg Middleburn).

I’ve never had a problem with my Royce/Middleburn combination, I just followed the instructions from Cliff at Royce, no grease (in fact degrease the cranks and tapers) torque, ride, torque, ride, torque until cranks stop moving.

Sorry but that’s bllx, if correct torque is applied.

read up on wet and dry torques …..

have you copper greased the BB shell too?

WI cranks are JIS taper – so there should be no “taper matching” problems on a Shimano spindle. That said their are always going to be ‘variations’ so it’s probably worth trying a different BB if you’ve got one handy.

And that might also eliminate whether it’s cup/shell creak as well.

Try cleaning then greasing the interface between the threaded cups and the bearing housing on the BB. The fixed cup side is a slide fit and you’ll need to tap it off either still treaded into the bike or take it off and put it in a vice. Square tapers should be grease free, this interface needs good contact between all four surfaces and having grease in there messes this up and you will probably wreck your cranks (I’ve seen it happen to loads).

Smiffy, the crank will go on further with lubrication and enlarge the hole in the crank arm. Ouch!

I am happy for you to show me that this is the case, please.

I’ve had this loads of times. Every time it’s been the bearing in the sealed BB. The first step however is to remove the BB and grease the threads as this can be the cause. It’s never been the cuase for me however.

Some BB’s go after no time, others last years, so it’s luck of the draw.

I rebuilt a roadbike last year with one of these new fangled splined cranks. Anyway, as there are too many “cock” drivers out there, i’ve barely used the bike. After less than five hundred miles, the bearings are beginning to creak.

Shimano must be doing brisk business!

Anyone make a BB with replaceable bearings? – so much easier and cheaper!

A greased taper requires less force to push on than a dry taper because there is less friction. The same torque at the bolt will therefore force the crank on further if it’s greased than if it were dry. When fitted correctly the aluminium crank arm deforms elastically so that all four faces give good contact with the steel axle. When greased the crank arm can defrom beyond it’s elastic limit and the hole will end up bigger than it should be and won’t fit properly.

Anyone make a BB with replaceable bearings? – so much easier and cheaper!

Funniliy enough WI do…

http://www.whiteind.co.uk/#/bottom-brackets/4533315239

😉

If you look at your Eno instructions,they actually specify lightly lubing the tapers……

From Sheldon Browns site

The claim that a greased spindle will enlarge the bore of a crank and ultimately reduce chainwheel clearance is also specious, because the crank cannot operate in a plastic stress level that would soon split the crank in use. However, increased engagement depth (hole enlargement) may occur without lubricant, because installation friction could ream the hole.

The admonition not to grease the spindle finds life mainly in the bicycle trade. When I discussed the “dry assembly” rule with crank manufacturers, I discovered that they had warranty claims from customers who split cranks. However, cranks cannot be split by overtightening them. This can be proven by attemting to do so. An M8x1 bolt is not strong enough to split a major brand crank.

Myself it goes against everything I have ever learnt or been tought in engineering / mechanics to have a metal to metal taper joint with dissimilar metals dry.

always grease them IMO

Back in the day when square taper was called cotterless I used to see lots of cranks wrecked because the square hole had opened up due to overtightening of the crank bolt coupled with them being greased to try and stop them creaking. If the creaking was coming from the crank/square taper interface it’s highly likely the crank is already worn.

EveryDayIsLikeSunday

Read the stuff from sheldon above – thats not what was happening – the cranks came loose and perhaps was fretting and riding with them loose caused the hole to increase in size – then the bolt was tightened in an attept to remove the play

TandemJeremy, I’ve read your link and I agree riding with loose cranks is the most common cause of failure. You can tell when this has happened because the bore in the crank arm is visibly worn where the leading edge of the BB axle has been bearing on it, but I have also seen the crank arm fail by being pushed too far onto the taper on assembly because it has been greased.

As Sheldon says square taper design relies on pre-tension of the bolt to ensure that all facets of the crank arm are in contact with the axle and to stop it coming loose when you load it by pedalling. The end load in the bolt is reacted by friction between the bore of crank arm and the axle. Since friction = coeficient of friction x perpendicluar force, if you decrease the coeficient of friction the perpendicular force must increase to achieve the same end load on the bolt (i.e. the crank arm has to be pushed further onto the taper) and in some cases this extra force causes the stress in the crank arm bore to exceed it’s elastic limit.

I have a spangly new Royce BB & Middleburn cranks ready to go on my new frame when it arrives, so I’m listening carefully. That last argument is pretty convincing imho.

You can re shape a crank with just the bolt. I have done it. Despite all things being equally tapered they are not always the same. A difference of the right sort can alter cranks.
I measure a Ultegra crank and BB once. Can’t remember how many thou they were different but they were. Checked it with another crank and that was different again. And all were new.

pedalhead, go with what the chainset manufacturer instructs. If they’ve been designed to be dry assembled that is what you should do.

pedalhead, go with what the chainset manufacturer instructs. If they’ve been designed to be dry assembled that is what you should do.

Cheers, Royce recommend dry taper/crank. Think I’ll just copperslip the BB threads & grease the bolts.

Myself it goes against everything I have ever learnt or been tought in engineering / mechanics to have a metal to metal taper joint with dissimilar metals dry.

Me too. well put.

http://www.highpath.net/
"There are two very important points to remember when fitting cranks:

Always clean and lightly grease the axle tapers or splines before fitting cranks. This contradicts advice which is often given, but anyone suggesting that grease shouldn't be used either doesn't have any mechanical understanding or has a vested interest in shortening the life of your cranks.
Always tighten the axle bolts adequately. If you have a torque wrench set it to 35 Nm, otherwise use a long spanner or a long Allen key as you won't tighten the bolts sufficiently with short ones. Then re-tighten them after riding 100km or so – loose cranks move under load and damage their sockets beyond repair.
Similarly, clean and lightly grease the pedal threads and tighten the pedals firmly. If you place a thin 'pedal washer' on each thread first, you can prevent steel pedal spindles from damaging aluminium cranks. "

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=82119

Copa slip (copper grease) does it not cause galvanic corrosion.
I had a Royce BB years ago and the left crank (Campagnolo Athena) kept coming loose. Had a look at the BB axle it had no chamfer on the end, so filed a small (0.5mm) chamfer on it and the crank did fit slightly further on and stayed on.

By the way bike slang: why is it BB axle and not spindle, or even crank shaft?
Why is it crank arm and not crank (the thing with the chainrings bolted to it ) and arm (the thing that does not have chainrings bolted to it)?

Well riding 100km on your newly fitted cranks before checking them – id say he has a vested interest in wreaking your cranks …..

Every thread about square taper installation since the dawn of time has always ended in a debate about grease or no grease on the tapers. Plane/conveyor has nothing on this 🙂