Court case. What do you think of this outcome?

November last year, driver overtakes coming the other way and nips in just in time to avoid the on-coming traffic I am part of. They swerve and barrel roll and smash me head on.

Result is a smashed arm and wrist with permanent damage and a broken shoulder. Five months off work and both cars written off.

Driver gets four month ban and £500 fine for driving without due care and attention as they had a clean license. The court only heard about my injuries because they were informed by a third party on the day. Surely this is dangerous driving at the very least?

Fair?

What are my options if I feel this an inadequate punishment?

Thanks for reading and any pointers are welcome.

Hope you at least got a generous insurance payout. I don’t think there are any legal options, but no doubt you’ll get some inventive suggestions…

Yeah the compensation I hope is fair, what is seen as fair I have no idea?

I just feel this is not fair, they have been banned for less time than I have been off work.

When I say fair, I haven’t been paid out yet. Any figures you guys think?

If youv’e got permanent damage then you must be able to claim compensation surely. That’s what I’d be after.

‘Adequate punishment’ however, is confusing me. Do you want compensation, the offending driver to have a more severe punishment, or both?

A mate of mine had his legs ‘smashed to bits’ (in the words of his consultant) & had a fair old payout, don’t think he was arsed what the offending driver got as punishment.

What are my options if I feel this an inadequate punishment?

**** all.
Best to just try and move on.
Don’t try and equate actual dangerous driving with the offence of dangerous driving, and don’t try and equate the law with justice.
Hope your injuries don’t give you too much grief.

I say this about all the cycling accidents and incidents that happen, but it also applies here as well. If you are involved in something, anything, make sure that you have your own legal representation. Do not assume that any part of the legal system is going to represent you or fight your corner.

Take out legal insurance.

Snob, thought so.

Grunt, compensation is being dealt with through my solicitor and their insurance company.

I just feel upset that they have not been punished adequately in my eyes.

Looks like I’ll never play cricket or golf again. Both of which I love.

Msp, good call.

Guilty plea to the lesser charge before trial, or found guilty after trial?

I would guess it was magistrates court, not a trial.

compensation is being dealt with through my solicitor and their insurance company.

I think to have any chance of justice, you need to instruct your solicitor to keep on top of, and ensure you are represented in any prosecution, as well as dealing with the compensation side of things. Probably too late in this case now, but something others should take note of.

We are brought up with a belief that the justice system is there to represent us, but it is almost bizarre the way victims are completely cut out.

Yes magistrates court. They pleaded guilty by letter but then the judge ordered them to appear in person due to the severity.

I just feel upset that they have not been punished adequately in my eyes

you need to understand the difference between intent and outcome. Obviously the outcome was very serious but the harm you suffered wasn’t the result of malice – they didn’t intend to crash, although they clearly didn’t take sufficient measures to insure they didn’t, or hurt you specifically or anyone else generally, they just took bad decisions that lead to an accident – they were in that accident too, and I doubt they wanted to be.

Just walking up to you and punching you on the nose would have a far less serious outcome – but the intent to do harm is there and that would be prosecuted and sentenced more severely than an unintended action with unintended consequences.

I would guess it was magistrates court, not a trial.

Come again?

Dont take their first offer. I dont know how it works but who is picking up your Solicitors bill?

Personally if it effects sports you used to enjoy I’d want at least starting with a six figure.

Mac- true

If you’re not happy then you know what to do…

Hammy to answer your question no I don’t think this is the right outcome to my mind overtaking in circumstances where you have to swerve to avoid oncoming traffic and swerving at such speed and in such a manner that he loses control and barrel rolls is at first sight Dangerous Driving. If prosecuted as careless I would have expected a little more on the ban and fine but he would have got a third off the fine for an early guilty plea .

As has been hinted at above the criminal court is concerned to establish the extent of the criminal conduct and the degree of intent in road traffic incidents the loss is viewed very much as pure chance and not taken to aggravate the offense . In simple terms people can drive very dangerously spend a lifetime “making progress in traffic” and have the good luck never to injure anyone on the other hand a minor one off error could be fatal. The law by and large looks at the risk run not the consequences. That is the criminal case in which the Queen takes the offender to court and imposes a punishment for breaking her law . Even as a victim you are only a witness and have no rights to representation and no control over events .
The civil case is where you take him to court for the wrong he has done to you and you are incharge of the conduct of the claim there you get compensated for all the loss he has caused you . Hopefully that will translate to a shed load of cash .

Oh and good luck.

The definition of dangerous driving always causes problems for courts and jury’s, it states.

the way he/she drives falls far below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver, and it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving in that way would be dangerous;[2]

The problems arise ascertaining what ” falls far below” actually means.
And the sentance on conviction for dangerous driving is 5 years, so will go to crown court, again a costly exercise.

so in most cases which are on the borderline of dangerous and due care, the cps will always choose due care.
And without knowing all the facts, sound more like a due care than a dangerous, for cps guidelines .

Ps, the prosecution do NOT need to prove any intent for dangerous

if it effects sports you used to enjoy I’d want at least starting with a six figure.

‘mental suffering’ seems to not carry much weight, tbh, if you can prove loss of future income, damage to property etc then you get paid but more nebulous stuff appears to not get much actual cash.

Don’t just add up monetary losses. Add on as much as you can think of for the permanent disability and loss of quality of life. I’d agree with the previous poster talking of 6 figures (though to be honest, I doubt you’ll get that much). The fact that they are at least convicted is a big help as it establishes their fault beyond doubt. Don’t be ashamed of pushing for the largest settlement possible, it’s not an ideal outcome (I’d prefer to see proper treatment in the criminal system) but it’s the way things are. You should of course seek proper legal advice if you haven’t already – a lot of people suggest the CTC is a good starting point.

Easygirl you are right about no intent . I was struggling express my self . The mental element is that which “is obvious” to the objective careful and competent driver.

Three years ago, a driver fell asleep at the wheel, hit me and my family. Totaled our car. All 4 of us off to hospital in ambulances with wife and youngest son with potential neck injuries.

He got 6 points and a fine.

The civil courts/insurers are the places for material damages.

Similar here again – sister in law and aunt were hit head on by a driver who took a corner too fast ‘drift style’ and took them out.
Two broken ankles and lower legs, broken collar bone, broken ribs, permanent scarring down her sternum and a host of cuts all over her, including face.
The other driver got 6 points and small fine.

Move on. Get a payout for damages.

To be fair, falling asleep at the wheel isn’t dangerous driving in the same way as the OPs experience. Still deserves punishment but it is an entirely different situation.

JD – Really? It is taking a decision to drive when you are cognitively impaired and unfit to do so, not just having a sweet, kitten-like, nap… 👿

Of course yes. I am surprised you can’t accept there is a difference.

Hammy to answer your question no I don’t think this is the right outcome to my mind overtaking in circumstances where you have to swerve to avoid oncoming traffic and swerving at such speed and in such a manner that he loses control and barrel rolls is at first sight Dangerous Driving. If prosecuted as careless I would have expected a little more on the ban and fine but he would have got a third off the fine for an early guilty plea .

No.

1) Its “without due care and attention”, not careless.
2) The test is persistance. A one off stupid overtake would be “without due care and attention”, to make it dangerous they’d have to be repeatedly doing it, so usualy it’s applied to police car chases etc. And with that comes a burden of proof, it’s obvious when there’s an accident, but unless the police are following with a camera it’d be a difficult one to prove.

Relative to most things driving is “dangerous”. Don’t confuse that with the legal definition of dangerous driving.

I’ll add. With your injuries you may also be looking at (early/earlier) arthritis than what you’d normally expect. Be on your Solicitors case pushing this. Don’t take just his/her advice (as he/she may think its gone far enough/done enough from their own perspective) whereas you put the legwork in now.

With your injuries you may also be looking at (early/earlier) arthritis than what you’d normally expect. Be on your Solicitors case pushing this. Don’t take just his/her advice (as he/she may think its gone far enough/done enough from their own perspective) whereas you put the legwork in now.

You can’t just make up a number, look up what you’re entitled to in the green book, it lists pretty much every injury/disease/ailment imaginable.

I know but I’m thinking pushing for the best deal.

Non-physical injuries are also covered in the green book (Post-traumatic Stress Disorder) which need to be thought about and put forward.

Sleepless nights/affecting how/where you drive/angry/or just worry.

JD – well the law – judging by the case results – agrees with me, not you. Each case is a single poor judgement.

Crankboy and Easygirl have covered the main issues:

– the CPS decide what charge to bring, if they don’t prosecute as Dangerous the court can’t upgrade the charge.
– the decision to treat this as Careless rather than Dangerous is not inconsistent with other cases that come before the courts; from what I’ve seen one of the differences is if it was a sustained course of conduct – so if there was EVIDENCE that he had repeatedly made bad overtakes along this journey, or ignored double white lines or warning signs they’d have gone Dangerous, for a single moment of bad judgement Careless is more common
– the court is supposed to sentence on the standard of driving not the consequences (although that is as much to work the other way round where he got luck and caused minimal harm to others as it is for the case where minor indiscretion results in major carnage).
– by pleading guilty he’s avoided heavy costs but also can expect a 1/3rd reduction in sentence.
– any mitigation he offered (by letter or in person) would be taken into account
– a four month ban may not sound like much to you but its fairly significant for a first offender in an English magistrates court.
– YOU can’t complain the sentence was unduly lenient. The Crown can appeal it, but they won’t in this case because it is not UNDULY lenient (this standard is very tough) or outside the range any reasonable bench would have imposed.
– given the number of cases that never make it to court, or which collapse before or during a trial then you might think on this outcome as a “success”.

– YOUR compensation is totally independent of the criminal sentence, and the admission of guilt can only help your case.

JD – well the law – judging by the case results – agrees with me, not you. Each case is a single poor judgement.

Except in your case the result didn’t agree with your opinion (unless I have completely misunderstood what you were saying then in that case ignore me).

My last comment, reading the topic reminded me of 10pshort’s prison experience (he got 12months):

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=141&t=442266&i=40

What are my options if I feel this an inadequate punishment?

I don’t think the criminal justice system works like that. The victims don’t get to choose the punishment, for obvious reasons.

I just feel this is not fair, they have been banned for less time than I have been off work.

To be honest, with a ban and this accident/conviction on his record he’ll be paying for this through his insurance for many years to come.

Thisisnotaspoon where do you get your persistence test from? If I see an oncoming police car responding to an emergency and deliberately drive to block it causing it to hit me , is that only careless because it was a single act?

I just feel this is not fair, they have been banned for less time than I have been off work.

Is there no way you can make a representation? Of course not exactly a victim impact statement but similar?

and deliberately drive to block it causing it to hit me

it’s proving intention that’s the problem you may know you did it deliberately but how can anyone prove that in court if you say ‘sorry, it was a moments inattention’?