Could we have a nice map of what’s actually on the ground

For bridleways in England specifically. It would be so nice to know if that dashed line is challenging to even walk, something you could do on a gravel bike, or something in between.

The best method I know of is to check the Bing maps aerial photos, which are the most detailed.

Classifications I would like: metalled track ok for a car with sump guard, semi metalled/rocky 4×4 track, short/grazed grassy way, long grass with no worn way through (ie not rideable), rocky footpath rideable, rocky footpath needing trials skills… Ok this system isn’t going to work, but how awesome would it be if we had a classification system and the whole network classified like this?

It wouldn’t just benefit MTBers, people could look and make an informed judgement of whether they might take their off road pram that way, could we take the kids for a ride this way to the beauty spot for a picnic etc.

Totally messed up my ride duration over the weekend. But it was a nice memory and I got some nice sunset and moonlight photos.

Classifications I would like: metalled track ok for a car with sump guard, semi metalled/rocky 4×4 track, short/grazed grassy way, long grass with no worn way through (ie not rideable), rocky footpath rideable, rocky footpath needing trials skills…

I can think of another two classifications, the first one specific to the Peak District, the second one that applies largely to the Peak but also some other places:

Trail that used to be fine until DCC came along and dumped a shitload of rubble all over it in the name of “resurfacing”.

Trail that rides brilliantly for about 3 days of the year but is an absolute bogfest if there’s been the slightest hint of rain in the previous month.

Get onto OpenStreetMap and start recording such data as part of the path properties

I’ve got plenty  mapped out that definitely don’t exist on the ground.

Following one will be a miserable hack through shoulder high brambles and ankle deep sheep poo, the other will take off the side of a mountain in a parabolic curve of despair. Both on the map as a right of way. Why anyone would want the right to travel them is a mystery.

It’s a good idea to classify tracks and trails beyond simply being a right of way. I’ve started my own map of places I’ve ridden and walked that describes the different sections. Rideable up/ down… Good descent…not worth the climb etc. I feel like I’ve basically invented trailforks but it’s come in handy when my memory fails me and I can’t remember stuff.

Get onto OpenStreetMap and start recording such data as part of the path properties

How does one approach such a task? And how does one see such information added by others?

Get onto OpenStreetMap and start recording such data as part of the path properties

That may well be the place for the data to live, but this literal suggestion wouldn’t make a dent in the issue.

There needs to be a classification scheme, an easy way for interested (but non enthusiasts) people to submit data, an easy way to view it for leisure users (not viewing some obscure property on OSM), an initiative to get a decent % coverage of the network done. On OSM, paths would likely need split up as the classification would vary along the way, e.g. into 1km sections.

I feel like I’ve basically invented trailforks

Except you’ve done the hard work i.e. making observations and judgements on the ground.

As with many online platforms (e.g. Komoot too), they’re just doing the easy bit which is making a website for users to enter the data into.

not viewing some obscure property on OSM

But OSM properties aren’t obscure.  Lots of software like talkytoaster and openvttmap and even garmin use it for routing and marking grading.  There is also a sort of standard although it does depend a bit on the country

For paths
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dpath

For surface types:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface

It’s a difficult problem but OSM is the place to put the data because various tools exist to do it depending on how sophisticated you want to be.  Then you later just wait for your favourite tool to update with what you have added.  Personally for simple edits I do it directly on openstreetmap.org but for bigger edits use JOSM

Creating a map that is specific for your needs is a more difficult ask.

an initiative to get a decent % coverage of the network done.

Councils are struggling to even classify and accurately record the trails that are there – many of which are not on maps or, if they are, are listed inaccurately.

https://www.cyclinguk.org/2026scrapped

Since trail conditions can change almost daily in some places or forever in areas such as working forests, an accurate and up to date way of noting the actual ground conditions seems optimistic!

This is really where local knowledge comes in, it’s something that just can’t be ascertained from maps and Strava. That said, OSM remains probably the best / most appropriate place for updates such as trail conditions.

Equally, there’s the situation that some trails (regardless of their legal status) are brilliant if done at crack of dawn or on a weekday but a nightmare on a Bank Holiday Monday.

Geograph paints a picture quickly.

You have to interpolate for season your in Vs the season then photo was taken in

Ordnance Survey maps mark trails on the ground as well as rights of way. Not in as much detail, but a single black dashed line is singletrack on the ground, double is doubletrack.

Not always 100% accurate and obviously depends on how old your map is, but handy when route planning.

Like this bridleway in the Moors – shows pretty accurately where the real trail goes Vs the right of way.

If you just use a larger scale map it’s really obvious

Somebody needs to invent OpenStreetMap 😀

Somebody needs to invent OpenStreetMap

I’m aware of OSM but thanks for people who posted detail of how it works.

I’m not debating what underlying tool the data should be stored in. I want the stuff I described in my OP, as an end user. How could it be made to happen?

Ordnance Survey maps mark trails on the ground as well as rights of way.

I’m aware of the OS types.

In my experience, doubletrack is pretty reliable but anything else can be anywhere between janky footpath and suitable for a gravel bike.

Given trails and conditions change all the time I’m wondering whether a better solution would be to correlate activity and weather data that’s been gathered over time.

Presumably, locals who ride tracks close to them tend to avoid bad ones when it’s been wet.

Might also be able to differentiate by rider preference (e.g. who tends to ride gnar, or who prefers just light xc)

It sounds like what you are missing is a map styled in the way that you want, prerably with doubletracks highlighted in a different way from other sorts of janky footpath.  The way you do it in openstreetmap is first to go to the place you want to map in openstreetmap.org and take a look at how those routes are tagged.  If they have actually been tagged in a way that is useful to you then you can use a program called mkgmap (https://www.mkgmap.org.uk/) to create a file that is styled the way that you want and that you can then load into your garmin.  It’s a bit of a steep learning curve but once you are there you can produce the maps you want from OSM data

If you go to openstreetmap.org and the area you are looking at isn’t tagged in any useful way then you are stuck unfortunately 🙁

Given trails and conditions change all the time I’m wondering whether a better solution would be to correlate activity and weather data that’s been gathered over time.

Presumably, locals who ride tracks close to them tend to avoid bad ones when it’s been wet.

Might also be able to differentiate by rider preference (e.g. who tends to ride gnar, or who prefers just light xc)

I doubt it would be better, but perhaps would be more feasible. See my previous comment about online platforms doing everything except the real hard work of getting good data too.

It sounds like what you are missing is a map styled in the way that you want, prerably with doubletracks highlighted in a different way from other sorts of janky footpath.

Yep the data to do what I want doesn’t exist, nor does the framework (e.g. suitable classifications, per-km attributes) nor incentives for it to be collected.

the framework definately exists, the other two probably don’t for where you are.  Going back to where you started with Bing photos, that is exactly what humanitarian teams do when there is a disaster.  There are various organisations that supply high res satellite (and other) images of the disaster area and then there are ‘mapping parties’ where groups of volunteers use those photos to get the data into OSM so it can be used by teams on the ground.  That sort of incentive doesn’t exist for your use case unfortunately.  Which reminds me that they can use QGIS to produce maps (not Garmin ones) and that is an easier way, but it doesn’t help you if the data isn’t there in the first place

Right, yes on the expert level, and not quite to the MTBers gnar level classification. But as an end user, it might as well not exist because there’s no end user product and there’s no data, and nobody’s going to change that.

openmtbmap propose an end user product that is styled for MTBers and suggest a way of tagging routes according to gnar level.  But, it’s up to folks like us to tag the trails they care about and that isn’t widespread as you have discovered

openmtbmap.org/tutorials/participate/

(sorry, I’m a glass half full sort of person.  I see the possibilities but agree that data is sparse in lots of areas)

Has anyone asked the ‘whats wrong with existing tools?’ question yet?

You can get a huge amount of clues off the Strava heat map, plus also segment data, particularly when during the year they were ridden. (E.g minimal attempts during darker months means it’s probably a swamp)

Relying on people to expend their own time and effort updating stuff is never going to be reliable and kept up to date.

The beauty of the heat map and Strava data generally is that all it needs is for the punters to press ‘record’ then ‘save’ which seems a lot more reliably achievable

OS maps are fantastic.

i find anything else a pain in the bum because i am so used to OS maps.

was talking to a mate recently, he like may reckons you could drop either of us in a location on a OS map, blindfolded. and with the map at hand, nothing else, we could tell you where we are in a very short time.

not because we are awesome map readers, but becuase the details on the maps are usually pretty spot on with what is on the ground.