condensate drain frozen (useless plumber )

Right,

Our boiler (put in a few years back for previous owner) has a condensate drain pipe.

It runs outside and it froze up last night, and I had to hairdryer it / poke things in the end to clear it.

Things that the idiot plumber who put it in did wrong:
1)Instructions recommend running it to an internal drain, not outside. It goes straight past the bath and sink drains, out the wall and down the outside wall to the drain.
2)Instructions say that if it goes outside, it should go to 32mm pipe and insulated if it needs it. It is 22mm pipe to the outside and not insulated.
3)Instructions say that it should have a minimum of joints, particularly in the outside bit – where it comes out, there are a total of 4 right angle connectors before it hits the vertical drop.
4)Instructions say that it should have a minimum drop of 1 in 10, and should be as steep as possible. It runs from the boiler cupboard pretty much horizontally to the outside, despite there being easily space to make a decent downward run – looking inside the pipe, the water pools for about 2-3mm on the bottom of this horizontal pipe.

So, other than clearing it every time it happens (which thank goodness seems to only be when we have sustained periods of <-5C), anyone got any ideas what I should do to fix the mess that this idiot plumber has left us with. Ideas so far:

1)Pipe lagging on the outside pipe – I can do this, and it would be cheap. Possibly in combination with removing some of the joints / bending the down pipe slightly.

2)Push up the end of the inside pipe, so it at least has a bit of drop on the pipe run. Again I can do this, just by wedging something underneath it.

3)Pay a plumber to fit it to the bath waste pipe. I can’t do this because in theory it is a gas part (potentially vents gas from the boiler), so I’d need someone Gas Safe Registered to do it.

4)Pay a plumber to make it 32mm pipe on the outside bit – Again it involves modifying the gas side of the boiler, so I won’t do it. I’d rather not do this, because it seems like bodging a bodge to me.

5)Ignore it. Climb up a ladder each time the boiler stops working.

Any opinions on what is the best idea?

Also, I’m guessing because it is so old (3 or 4 years I think), even though he blatantly ignored building regs & gas safety stuff etc. I can’t hassle the original installer about it – useless bugger that he appears to be?

Joe

I would say where there’s blame, there’s a claim. Sue him.

I had exactly the same problem with my Vailliant boiler last weekend.
Ended up using 32mm pipe run within the house with the bare minimum ooutside into the drain.

Worth noting the water that is produced is corossive and i wouldnt recomend putting it onto your bath drain as should it ever block and back fill it could potentionally ruin your bath.

Climbing up ladders in the frost and snow with a kettle of boiling water is not the best fix i agree.

British Gas fitted our new boiler in the same way, condensate drain to an outside drain. Froze last winter, will freeze again this winter. Might look into this as it is due its annual safety check.

Same here, fortunately no ladder required to get to the boiler. Water drips out of the bottom of the condensate trap inside the boiler case and onto the floor. I’ve used a length of old inner tube ziptied to a pipe to catch it at the trap and deliver it into a basin on the floor.

Although not recomended a friend of minre put an inline tap into his condensate pipe and during the winter it simply drained into a large plastic water container that he emptied once a week.

Not ideal but it will get you out the mire so to speak. Probably not a long term fix. 😕

Just been to check mine, and another possible fix came to mind; mine comes out of the wall then immediately there is a 90 degree downwards bend, and a join into a long straight downwards run.
My thought was remove the long downwards run, might allow icicles to form but not the massive pipe blocking ice problem I had last winter.

It will stain the wall, and also the iceicle will grow up the pipe into the boiler stopping it working.

Worth noting the water that is produced is corossive and i wouldnt recomend putting it onto your bath drain as should it ever block and back fill it could potentionally ruin your bath.

That’s weird – instructions are pretty clear about running it to a bath / sink / washing machine waste pipe?

I’d be surprised if it was so corrosive that it’d ruin the bath quick enough that we’d not have noticed the bath & shower being blocked before that happened? Or is it really very very corrosive?

It is quite easy to defrost, just a quick hop up the ladder with a hairdryer, but it just feels like it shouldn’t be needing it.

Joe

Trace heating? I think you can buy kits from B&Q etc.

Trace heating? I think you can buy kits from B&Q etc.

Yeah, although that seems like a waste of energy heating up a pipe, just so your ‘high efficiency’ boiler can run, when changing the angle / size of the pipe, or even making it go to the right drain in the first place would remove the need for it.

More on what the plumber should have done if he wasn’t a useless waster:
http://www.centralheating.co.uk/system/uploads/attachments/0000/2893/T10_0228A__INDUSTRY_GUIDANCE_ON_CONDENSATE_DRAINAGE_PIPE_INSTALLATION__FINAL_.pdf

They don’t use a lot of energy and if done properly should only come on when required.

You could just put some lagging round it and see if that helps. Why will a 32mm pipe be better than a 22mm? Isn’t it just a very small amount of condensate?

They don’t use a lot of energy and if done properly should only come on when required.

They use a min of 10W per meter. When running 24 hours a day that’s a fair amount. But it’s better than being cold due to no boiler. I just cut mine open and have it draining into a bucket.

Isn’t it just a very small amount of condensate?

Mine drops about 200ml at a time, and when on in this weather it drops about 5 times per hour.

Mate works for BG, lots of frozen condenser pipes last winter, people would call out, he’d phone them say “I’ll be there in 5 mins put the kettle on” – obviously they thought he wanted a brew before even starting, he reckoned it halved the onsite time if the kettle was pre boiled 🙂

You could just put some lagging round it and see if that helps. Why will a 32mm pipe be better than a 22mm? Isn’t it just a very small amount of condensate?

32mm would take a lot longer to freeze up and block – over 2x the area to fill. I’m guessing that’s why boiler manufacturers specify it.

I’ll have a go at lagging it, and maybe see if I can take a couple of 90 degree connectors out of the exterior pipe work, which I guess might just fix it enough to be okay.

Lagging doesn’t work 😥 spent a lovely couple of hours up a ladder in -8 temps a couple of weekends ago defrosting and lagging ours, which sounds like it was installed by the same idiot as did yours, I used the really thick walled black lagging but woke up yesterday morning and the boiler had tripped out.
I can now empty the airing cupboard, take the cover off the boiler, wedge a bucket under the boiler, remove the drain hose and reservoir, empty and refit within 10mins though 🙂
As soon as it’s warm enough I’ll have ours re routed inside.

I’ve just sawn through the pipe where it comes out of the wall just like the engineer did last year only this time I saved myself 3 days without any hot water or heating. It drips onto the gravel path now.

Our recently installed condensing boiler uses a flexible pipe into the 32 mm outer pipe. If it freezes ( which it hasn’t) I can pull the flexi pipe out and run it into a bucket.

This might be a fix for those of you repeatedly hacking into your pipes.

My installation dude (who is a mate and whos kids I coach) said not to bother with lagging. If it’s cold enough it’ll still freeze and take alot longer to thaw, and even closed cell foam soaks in moisture and makes it useless.

My thought was remove the long downwards run, might allow icicles to form but not the massive pipe blocking ice problem I had last winter

This is what I had to do in January, and have had to do again this time. TBH, for the minimal amount of water (and the fact I won’t be in the house forever), this is minimal hassle to me.

My installation dude (who is a mate and whos kids I coach) said not to bother with lagging. If it’s cold enough it’ll still freeze and take alot longer to thaw, and even closed cell foam soaks in moisture and makes it useless.

Only if the water is stagnant. If the line is free draining then the lagging will help, although it’s by no means a guarantee that it won’t freeze.

Just read the above, as well as the previous thread last week about frozen condensation drains.

Our drain feeds into the dishwasher outlet pipe, which is then feeds in to a Saniflow which pumps up to ground level.

Could this be knackering the Saniflow if the condensation is corrosive?

and even closed cell foam soaks in moisture and makes it useless.

Closed cell foam is does NOT soak in water, your installation friend is mistaken. This is why it’s used as *permanently* submerged floatation on pontoons for boats.

Could this be knackering the Saniflow if the condensation is corrosive?

Depends if your saniflow has sensitive materials in it, I suspect the saniflow designers expected some more significantly more unpleasant/corrosive stuff to go through it so I’d not worry. It’s carbonic acid, same as you get in a can of coke, only significantly less potent.

Personally I’d be more concerened about what’s coming from your dishwasher than your boiler. The salts and other chemicals, not to mention fats and other debris are a more likely casue of problems.

Edit. That’s to FD obviously.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condensing_boiler
The condensate produced is slightly acidic, 3-5 pH,
As a comparison the pH or acid level of Coca Cola Classic is 2.5

Similar problem last year, my combi pipe came out of the wall 90o bend then drops about 2000mm onto the garage roof another90o bend and a 3000mm section lying on the garage roof then drips into the garage gutter. Pipe froze solid because it was lying submerged in the garage roof snow.
I just disconnected the pipe as it met the garage roof, insulated the piece from the outlet down to the roof – job done.

the pipe lagging sold by plumbers merchants and diy stores is not waterproof, regardless of the closed cell or not. Ask the manufacturers of the insulation.

Best way is to take the condense internally, it is mildly acidic, and can’t be taken into a metal pipe, but internal waste pipes are largely plastic so you should be able to use that. Failing that increase the pipe size to 32mm, but make sure that you discharge it to a suitable location.

Out of interest of all the people on here who have had this problem, how many went for the cheapest estimate for the boiler change?

(1) CK – the main acidic component of coke is phosphoric acid not carbonic.

(2) Is this really considered part of the “gas system” and have the potential to contain gas or CO if venting it into the domestic sewer is considered OK? Put it down your bath waste pipe and where does this gas go?

Out of interest of all the people on here who have had this problem, how many went for the cheapest estimate for the boiler change?

I went for one of the most expensive options, British Gas on the misapprehension that they knew what they were doing and would do a proper job. What an idiot I was.

Always had problems with this during prolonged cold spells in previous years, finally got round to lagging the pipe & hey presto problem solved. But then again I am in the soft southern region & the pipe is mostly vertical 🙂

When you’ve seen the damage dripping condense can do to a concrete floor you’ll know how corrosive it is – I design commercial flue systems for a living & have seen a fair few examples over the years.

Yes it is part of of the gas system as it is part of the flue system, therefore you need to be qualified to work on it.

I know judging by the problems people have had on here, most seem incapable, but don’t tar everyone with the same brush please…….

British gas is the exception to the get what you pay for rule, they have some very good engineers, but I believe the installation side is sales driven?

my pipe froze yesterday and the boiler kept cutting out, a safety thing i guess.
so i pulled the outside part of the pipe off , and its now draining into a plant pot.
didnt know it was acidic, may well have a dead plant soon then.
my property is HA owned and two nights have passed now with nobody turning up to fix it, so had to do it myself. i dont really know what i’m doing though 😳

Find the original plumber and shoot him in the cock?

When we had a new bolier installed last year the plumber got the trainiees / kids to put this pipe in. They managed to end up running it up hill to the main drain. I was less than impressed and had the plumber out twice in the winter to first get the bolier working and then to put the pipe in correctly

Bear

Yes it is part of of the gas system as it is part of the flue system, therefore you need to be qualified to work on it. so is it sensible to put the “flue” down your drain (where it can then potentially come back up other drains)

I’ve got this problem too on a 2yr old completely new system, been pouring hot water onto waste pipe for over a week now but without much success then someone (electrical trained) suggested it may be the pipe that pulls in the cold air, that the air is so cold that it’s tripping the boiler. I don’t know what to do but my house is getting colder and my underfloor heating isn’t!
What should I do? Spouse has gone climbing and couldn’t give a fig apart from saying lets have another heating system installed! Yes, he’s insane.