Coed-y-Brenin and Bwlch Nant yr Arian at Risk ?

That’d be a big shame, last time I was there the parking machines weren’t working so I made sure I spent afew more quid in the cafe instead. That said I find there’s too much fire road but the trails are decent enough, Prefer riding the Marin trail tbh though

“Which also requires a shed load of money.”

Yet most of the trails in British Columbia were / are built by volunteers with a shovel, Pulaski, bucket and a saw.

people in Birmingham are more likely to drive 30min to Cannock than to remote bits of Wales.

Or llandegla or dyfi depending on what they are into. This is the problem CyB haven’t moved with the times and the competition for mtb riders. They have focused development money on running a family friendly blue and green trails. I guess the question for them is has that added to their financial problems by not attracting the specked numbers or made their whole less deep because it’s exceeded expectations

This is the problem CyB haven’t moved with the times

I think we should also be cognisant of the other factor here, which is that CyB can’t physically move. And that is always going to be a factor. It was first built when petrol was half the price it is now. It was deliberately built in that location to try and draw some of the money from richer areas in to poorer areas. Belts have been tightened a lot over those 2 decades and many of the target audience don’t feel like they have the disposables to travel so far. Especially as covid brought with it an expectation and reality of having more, better trails closer to home.

Don’t get me wrong, the trails themselves are also an issue, but its remoteness is a huge factor that CyB can do nothing about.

(Yes, I know Dyfi even further away etc)

This is an absolute shame.

CyB, parking charges are 1/5th that of Dalby, which is getting left behind.

I usually go to Dolgellau at least once a year for three to four nights. Pay for camping, food, everything else inbetween.

Last year my partner and I noticed how ridiculously expensive leisure/ entertainment was (especially for those with kids- thankfully we don’t have any). Minumum £40 per hour per person.

A day at CyB was costing us only £3/4 in parking, perhaps they need to look at this.

CyB was also fairly unique as a destination  trail centre back in 2000, worth travelling hundreds of miles to. Now there are loads of similar all over the UK why bother? 

Because the surrounding area is beautiful and has lots to offer for a large variety of needs.

It would be handy if someone would do a bit more digging into the story.

• What’s actually at risk of closure?
• Just the VC bit of the VC, or the whole building?
• Is there really any threat (or realistic possibility) of the trails being closed?
• Why? Is the site not bringing in the money it used to, or has the WG/NRW always been subsidising to some extent?

Any cycling journos reading this are welcome to use those bullets as a starter for 10, as all I’ve seen so far is a straight lift of the original story on MBR.

Chakaping’s right, the details at the moment are sketchy at best.

Reading the articles everything refers to ‘visitor centres’ and not the trails themselves. Also I might be wrong but at CYB I thought the café and bike shop are independent business’s that rent the space from NRW. With the rent incomes and the car park fees how much more additional money does NRW have to put into CYB to keep it operating as it currently does?

@sam3000

CyB, parking charges are 1/5th that of Dalby,

If thats true, are we saying it costs £2 to park all day?

Perhaps I’m a Turkey voting for Christmas but if so, that is nuts. Its no wonder they have no money.

You cant park anywhere for £2 these days.

are we saying it costs £2 to park all day?

It’s more than that, I’m sure.

More like £5 or £6 IIRC

What’s the problem with the trails there – I haven’t been for 20+ years, can’t really remember anything other than it being rocky, always meant to revisit, but not often in the area.

I think that the food and drink offering at the visitor’s centers at both places are uninspiring to be honest.

What’s the problem with the trails there – I haven’t been for 20+ years, can’t really remember anything other than it being rocky

I suspect you will find almost nothing has changed other than sections closed for felling or trees down. That’s not a genuine reply BTW, not a sarky response.

I think that’s why the place isn’t busy, it just hasn’t moved with the times. I don’t buy the replies above about people not having money or wanting to travel. You only have to look at DYFI and BPW, even Morzine. There are a good number of MTBers who have plenty of disposable income who don’t mind travelling, you just have to give them what they want.

Similar with Afan and CwmCarn, close enough to the heavily populated, relatively wealthy, South East and yet the carpark is pretty quiet on a weekend.

I think that the food and drink offering at the visitor’s centers at both places are uninspiring to be honest.

That’s true of most trail centres. The small local business’s that helped their growth have generally been replaced by large corporates with expensive food and uninterested staff.

The only ‘problem’ (if you want to call it that – I don’t) with the trails at CyB and NyA compared to places like BikePark Wales is that you have to get to the top under your own steam, not in a mini bus. Perhaps the demographic has shifted in recent years to people wanting more bang for their buck, as it were. For me, enjoyment of my riding is derived not just from the thrill of riding trails at speed, but the whole immersive experience of being on my bike in a beautiful place. And the view down the river valley at CyB certainly ticks that box.

people wanting more bang for their buck

People not wanting to pedal? I rode QECP for the first time today, and as I plugged up the steep, chalky, rooty climbs on the red loop I noticed that it was looking like it hadn’t been ridden much, despite being a lot more accessible than CyB. The downhill bits were tricky not only because they were unfamiliar to me but also because covered in deep leaves. The only other person I did see on the red was on an e-bike . Events like Mayhem which require both mental and physical stamina can no longer attract enough people to be viable. Working hard for your fun is just so unfashionable.
Also, the cafe at CyB is better than the one at QECP, and I really enjoyed my ride, even though my Garmin told me my recovery time was 72 hours!

It’s more than that, I’m sure.

More like £5 or £6 IIRC

£6.40 in 2022.

Last weekend, the car park cost me £4.80 for the afternoon

Little hint, the CyB car park machine offers both Welsh and English (it defaults to Welsh) – if you use it in Welsh, it’s cheaper than if you use it in English! Not by much – maybe about 40-50p I think when I was there but I was expecting to pay £7 for the day and surprised when the machine flashed up a lower price, £6-something (can’t remember).

The only reason I used it in Welsh was cos the guy in front of me had spent ages faffng with the thing trying to get it into English, finally succeeded and paid £7, I just didn’t bother putting it into English. We’d both parked at about the same time so it wasn’t a time of arrival thing.

I might have underestimated with £2, however, £5 for your half day is amazing value when you consider the cost of a pint of beer, or taking your kids to the underground crazy golf.

It’s a fair price and (perhaps as a result) I honestly don’t think there’s much car park charge dodging going on at all at CyB. Also due to the geography perhaps.

I’ve always thought a quid for a shower at CyB was under priced.  After riding around in the cold and wet for a few hours, that quid must be one of the best I’ve ever spent.

CyB was also fairly unique as a destination  trail centre back in 2000, worth travelling hundreds of miles to. Now there are loads of similar all over the UK why bother? 

Because the surrounding area is beautiful and has lots to offer for a large variety of needs.

Back when it opened, I was single, had no kids and enough disposable income to spend a weekend in north Wales just riding bikes, so CyB would have had my pennies for parking, lunch, cake, coffee, maybe even something from the shop. This would probably have happened enough times a year for me to know the trails blindfold despite it being a four hour drive. The area being beautiful was nice but irrelevant – it could have been in the centre of a slum if the riding was good enough. We spent all of our time riding and drinking, not sightseeing.
Then family life happened, and  any weekend away was harder to organise and was a cost that I felt guilty about if not spending on the family. Weekends away dropped to ‘occasional’ from ‘regular’.
Twenty odd years later, I have a family who are now growing past the point of needing supervision so I can finally spend weekends on my own again. I’ve ridden during that whole period, so when I’ve visited CyB is feels a little old-fashioned to me, but also that time period has opened up a huge choice of riding everywhere. There is no need to visit north Wales several times a year when there are so many other places to ride. And I’m not so single minded about riding now, because I’m older and wiser, so I’ll have weekends away doing other things – gravel riding, walking, birdwatching, astronomy, gigs, or even with my wife and daughters. 😀
TLDR : we grew older.

Local area to me is about to introduce car parking charges (now almost 2 years late – for various reasons)…anyone, they have been making sure social media is updated and plenty people are seeing the message. About 20% seem ok with the charge; another 25% are asking for confirmation on how it works, the rest of the comments are all dog walkers stating they won’t be using it as the £2.50 isn’t worth the price to walk their dog and that the place is too busy. From what I can see, those who park to go biking seem ok with the charge; those dog walking or walking don’t seem happy that they have to start paying.
Seems properly short-sighted as they just need to go to the cafe and get a takeaway can of juice and they can park for £1.50…but the fact they are now being expected to pay is making them think it isn’t worth it. Appears to be very odd to me, but humans do like a right moan when things change…

Word of mouth is that they’re not going to close, just looking at different ways of operating. They’re something of an outlier as the cafe etc is run and staffed by NRW. I expect they want to reduce costs and risks by tendering some elements to private businesses. It’s very much early stages now, so what the future looks like for both sites isn’t really clear. News was leaked rather than announced I think.

Appears to be very odd to me, but humans do like a right moan when things change…

They do, but they also love a quick meander about 200m from an easily accessed carpark, preferably a free one. They are also quite happy to damage their expensive cars parking in unsuitable but free places, but that’s also fine because the cars are all on finance and will be changed before the damage becomes a problem.  😀

if you use it in Welsh, it’s cheaper than if you use it in English

I find that very hard to believe. This is a government org not some schoolboy car park assistant.

There is however free parking for locals.

https://naturalresources.wales/days-out/places-to-visit/north-west-wales/coed-y-brenin-visitor-centre/?lang=en#:~:text=is%20not%20permitted.-,Parking%20charges,-You%20are%20charged

Unfortunately, I think CyB and NyA are the low hanging fruit as NRW look to make organisation wide savings.   NRW have to maintain their regulatory duties, so leisure provision will suffer.   I don’t think the threat of closure is due to either CyB or NyA failing/underperforming in terms of rider experience or the trails themselves.
I like both CyB and. NyA as they are quiet and have interesting trails.  Both suffer due to the S**t filters that are  Llandegla and Cannock., Both Llandegla and Cannock  are extremely dull but always busy. Location is key.  How can anyone say that the trails at Llandegla and Cannock have moved with the times?

I’m a bit confused by the NRW statement. Given that the visitor centre comprises of a reception, a cafe presumably run to make a profit, a lease to a bike shop and another one to a running shop then why is it impacting on resources? Surely these should be generating a profit into NRW if they are being run properly rather than a cost

Their latest statement has been added to the start of the story. Looks like someone realised consultation needs to be seen to happen?

“I never understood the endless arms race with FS bikes where even an entry level bike is now far more capable than a top tier 2000 DH race bike. You just run out of places to ride, or ride everything massively over biked”

Agreed. I would have thought it makes more sense to buy a bike that’s best suited to the trails you have available to you, than to buy a bike that’s much more capable, and then complain that the trails you have are too boring. I’ve sometimes considered buying a bigger bike, a 150mm thing, but then where would I ride it?

Anyway, I rode CYB last summer with wife and kids (10 and 12) on XC bikes and we all thought it was pretty damn good. If I’d been on my own, maybe it wouldn’t have been the most challenging thing ever, but then I’d just ride it faster. It certainly had some nice, interesting flowing fun sections.

The cafe was ok (very busy though). I’m never sure what these “visitors centres” provide besides the cafe. They always seem to have unused meeting rooms, rather weak exhibitions etc. Maybe they’re just a bit overambitious and just a basic cafe and carpark would be more financially sustainable.

Summit Cycles / Beics Brenin just emailed.

board meeting scheduled for the beginning of February.

…

We expect to know more in the week beginning 5th February.

…

we remain optimistic that Coed y Brenin will continue to offer superb riding appeal for many years to come

…

public meeting to discuss issues around the review of visitor centres by NRW. This will take place at Ganllwyd Village hall at 6.30pm on Thursday 1st February. Representatives of NRW will be there alongside members of the local community & council

The shop and cafe probably do ok but their lease income won’t be great for NRW – that’s not the point. CyB is a valuable natural resource, not a business.

How many of us enjoy escaping modern life, just to be out in the forest? There is a value (albeit hard to quantify) in doing that and having a place like CyB there for us all to treasure. Any future developments need to be sympathetic to the local ecology and enhance the environment rather than try to dominate it.

Get Ganllwyd is close to CyB but a consultation for Nant yr Arian at … … Borth!
Doesn’t the CyB Ranger also oversee the Marin trail, so are there any concerns over the long term viability of the Marin … with its fun off-piste stuff?

Can anyone confirm if visitor numbers are in decline?

I don’t think so – if anything visitor numbers have increased. Easily 100k+ per year for each centre. It’s more likely the financial cost of running the centres – utilities, maintenance etc are more than the revenue from car parking + leases. Closing the centres saves a few quid in the short term. Obvs, this would be a tragedy.

Personally, I believe there is scope to expand what is on offer. Maybe woodland craft workshops, ecology & land management courses or self-sufficiency weekends, just as examples. CyB and NyA are wild and unique places, which offer so much more than an MTB ride.

Diversifying like this also makes the centres more resilient. I appreciate this is not a flawless business-case but going back to my previous point – NRW is a public service, it’s not (and never will be) motivated by profit.

Update this morning from the good folk at Oldskool

Coed y Brenin Update

As some of you may have heard, last night a meeting was held to discuss the future of Coed y Brenin. Unfortunately we were unable to be there as we are currently on the other side of the world but our brilliant friends (and colleagues) Sian and Dafydd Roberts attended and have given us the lowdown (for those of you who know them, I’m sure you will agree that they are exceptionally well qualified when it comes to anything Coed y Brenin related)
The upshot of the meeting was:
– At present, NRW are losing in excess of £350,000 a year in running the visitors centre….
– As a result, they want to make changes to the way the Visitors Centre/Cafe operates
– These changes will not be immediate and will take several years to implement
– The mountain bike trails at Coed y Brenin are not at risk
It’s also worth mentioning that the meeting was so well attended, attendees had to spill outside as there wasn’t space for everybody inside. This shows just how important Coed y Brenin is to so many people.
If you have opinions about the importance of CyB, the running of the visitors centre, what needs to change, what works well, etc, we encourage you to make your voice heard by completing the survey (link below) AND emailing your thoughts to the Welsh Government in order to highlight the significance of the site to locals and tourists alike (relevant emails also below).
https://docs.google.com/…/1FAIpQLSckcLmmnG0…/viewform…
Mabon.Ap.Gwynfor@senedd.cymru
Vaughan.Gething@senedd.cymru
Mark.Drakeford@senedd.cymru

That does make sense. It’s the visitor centre that’s the issue not the whole set up. I think I might have bought a trail map there back in the day. But it’s a lot of space and staff for not much gain

I’ve enjoyed all my rides there. Mainly with son and niece back in the day.

I haven’t been for maybe 10 years. But for those who haven’t been for 20 years they added lots of easier stuff close the visitor centre. Which was is fab for creating the level of fun and distance your family requires that day.

I enjoy trail centres but it was with the family they really came into their own. Enough people about that the kids felt the buzz, easy fire road up, pick and choose fun bits of trail

Well, back-of-a-stamp calculation says another £3 from each of the 100,000 annual visitors will cover that shortfall easily…

@onewheelgood that link gives me a 404 error.