Clever logo… (well I thought so anyway)

@Jamie – what and where is that weird place??

It’s Powerstation IM in Belgium.

http://www.28dayslater.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=45380

A Hi-Res pic to break your browser:

actively and with great effort avoid certain products, because of their marketing
and have not said I do

Followed by the fact that you avoid branded stuff?

Its a high dose of caffine in a convenient form

Like a (very much cheaper) cup of coffee?

Graham – you still miss the point

I am but an ignorant worm, oh enlightened one, but I’ll try to keep up. 🙄

Its about avoiding beiong a part of the consumerist society. Once one understands one can reject marketing then the need to buy consumer goods reduces.

Teach us, oh great one.

😛

Do you honestly you’ve cracked some magical truth here TJ?? Shown that the Emperor is naked? Do you honestly think that me and the other ignorant souls on this thread are debating with you purely because we have yet you achieve your beatific vision and understanding of consumerist society?

FWIW, I do generally try to avoid overt consumerism. I do get stuff second hand. I do try to mend rather than throw away and buy new. And I do attempt to be as subjective as I can when I buy things.

I suspect that a large number of people on here would say the same thing.

But I still recognise that branding works and does influence decisions. Even on you. Whether you like it or not.

Charlie – you need to understand the concept of the object as being separate from the brand. I buyu red bull because of what it is not because of what it is marketed as

you keep saying this, no one asked you about this. I’m asking you why you thought it might be useful to keep you awake? how you knew it was a caffeine based drink? Why you first picked it up? and why that one over any other

No charlie – you are still telling me that I cannot act and think as I do.

No, I’m not. I fully believe you act and think as you do. I just don’t think you are very aware of your motivations

its true we will argue about **** all

But I still recognise that branding works and does influence decisions. Even on you. Whether you like it or not.

Yes and that goes back to the Great Baked Bean Debate a few months ago.

Graham / charlie. You need to have a look at what I have said with an open mind.

You keep telling me that I cannot do what I do. this is really rather offensive. Just because you don’t understand does not mean it is not possible.

Well, his blood chemistry sensors indicated a low caffeine level, and having no access to a cup of coffee, he went to a shop – chosen at random, since the signs on the outside meant nothing to him – and conducted an analysis of all the drinks on sale, and discovered that the most caffeine per Scots penny was provided by No-Name Cola.

But then he remembered the sexy ads and bought a Red Bull.

CharlieMungus – Member

“No charlie – you are still telling me that I cannot act and think as I do”.

No, I’m not. I fully believe you act and think as you do. I just don’t think you are very aware of your motivations

thats exactly it – you are telling me I cannot act and think as I do a perfect example in a single sentance

You keep telling me that I cannot do what I do. this is really rather offensive. Just because you don’t understand does not mean it is not possible.

And you keep implying that we are weak-minded inferior fools for falling for this “branding nonsense” – so the offence is mutual.

You keep telling me that I cannot do what I do. this is really rather offensive. Just because you don’t understand does not mean it is not possible.

You think that’s offensive? Wait till they start laughing at your pointy Vulcan ears!!

Red Bull: I’m asking you why you thought it might be useful to keep you awake? how you knew it was a caffeine based drink? Why you first picked it up? and why that one over any other.

thats exactly it – you are telling me I cannot act and think as I do a perfect example in a single sentance

what??? Where?

GrahamS

And you keep implying that we are weak-minded inferior fools for falling for this “branding nonsense” – so the offence is mutual.

really? where?

You did, TJ, I can’t be bothered to wade back through 17 pages to find it. But you definitely called people gullible.

Look – when people create a product, they have to decide what they want to do. The people at Porsche decided that they wanted to make fast cars, so that’s what they did. That’s building a brand. It’s the reason they don’t make slow ones, cos their brand is fast.

That’s a fact – their cars really are fast, so you’re not being duped. They’re not pretending they are fast, or trying to convince you they are fast when they are not. They ARE fast, that’s an incontrovertible fact. And it’s the core of their brand.

Branding IS about facts as well as emotions. And sometimes lies.

Charlie

I just don’t think you are very aware of your motivations

Ie you are saying I do not act in the manner I know I do.

TJ, you do keep ignoring the main example of the infuence of branding. Quite studiously, it seems.

The Red Bull. One amongst many. You picked it up, apparently because you want caffeine. Why not any of the others? Have you tasted them all? why not coffee? why not a glass of water and a pro-plus?

Go on TJ, why DO you buy Red Bull over other caffeine-based drinks? I am still waiting.

the object as being separate from the brand. I buyu red bull because of what it is not because of what it is marketed as

Food & drink raises an interesting point. What is often sold as the same product is not necessarily the same all over the world. The recipes used to make food & drink products are often amended to make the product suit a certain market.

If you wanted to buy a Red Bull in Thailand it would be very different to what you get in the UK.

The simple fact that a Red Bull is available to you and the way it tastes, is this not part of marketing?

Ie you are saying I do not act in the manner I know I do

No, I believe you act the way you say you do.

Molgrips – you are still missing my point. i completely understand what branding is and accept this

Branding IS about facts as well as emotions. And sometimes lies.

And what I do tho is try to look beyond the branding at the inherent attributes ie the facts and use them to make the decisions whilst doing my best to ignore the emotions and lies.

this is what graham does not get with the red bull example. I buy it for what it is – a high caffeine drink ( and I only buy red bull if there is no palatable cheaper alternative) I don’t buy it for its association with adventure and sport, I buy it cos it will help me keep awake ant 3am

mastiles_fanylion – Member

Go on TJ, why DO you buy Red Bull over other caffeine-based drinks? I am still waiting.

if its the only palatable one available. I buy the cheaper ones if they are available assuming I find them palatable. I have tried most of them

CharlieMungus – Member

Ie you are saying I do not act in the manner I know I do

No, I believe you act the way you say you do. then why say this?

I just don’t think you are very aware of your motivations

but… I’m asking you why you thought it might be useful to keep you awake? how you knew it was a caffeine based drink? Why you first picked it up? and why that one over any other.

then why say this?
I just don’t think you are very aware of your motivations

There is no conflict.

And what I do tho is try to look beyond the branding at the inherent attributes

Yes, but the inherent attributes are part of the brand.

Red Bull is an interesting example because before it arrived there was not much of a market for high caffeine fizzy drinks. The fact that TJ even considered the possibility of buying such a product ia testament to the power of advertising.

<awaits inevitable denial >

😯

FFS – can you not grasp the basic concept here?

but… I’m asking you why you thought it might be useful to keep you awake? how you knew it was a caffeine based drink?Why you first picked it up?

because of the advertising / marketing material. I saw that looked at the product, checked out the ingredients – ( which actually is more than just caffeine). Red bull is an intreting one because it was a unique product and created a new market therefore the only real souce of information we had on it was the marketing info. But i did not buy it for what it was marketed as / branded as – I bought it for what it is. this is the concept you seem unable to understand – the diffence between the brand and the object. some of us understand this,

I drink it on night shifts

and why that one over any other.

I don’t – I buy the cheapest palatable one. So sometimes red rooster, sometimes the lidl variant.

this is the concept you cannot seem to get. Red bull is a product with attributes. I go to the shop thinking – “I want a can of super caffine juice ” and I buy the cheapest palatable one with the right ingredients.

> And you keep implying that we are weak-minded inferior fools for falling for this “branding nonsense” – so the offence is mutual.

really? where?

Errr.. bascally throughout your entire 30,000 word argument.
Some choice things you have said:

I pity anyone who believes in all this stuff and who wastes their life and / or money doing it…

This is clearly a very difficult concept for some of you to understand. some of us do this. we buy for what things are…

You confuse what something is branded as for what its properties are. One is inherent, one is a construct.

you guys grossly overestimate the importance of this stuff and grossly overestimate how many people see it as you do.

..clever advertising can assiciate your product with certain attributes in they eyes of the gullible... However you need to accept that for many of us we see straight thru it.

…Unlike you guys I do understand that what the product is is not always the same as what it is branded and marketed as.

…You have to separate the object from the referent. this is the bit you and the other believers in marketing are not getting.

…a part of what you fail to understand is that I am not paying your game at all. I don’t play the consumerist game.

…you seem unable to understand that there is another way of thinking and working that involves actively discounting the branding and looking beyond that at what it is.

…to you the object is the referent so you cannot grasp this concept.

…because yo don’t understand you make up things

…this is the bit you find so hard to grasp – what the object is and what it is branded and marketed as are not always the same thing.

…The other thing I understand that people seem to have difficulty with is the object is not the brand.

…this is the bit you guys need to learn and understand

etc etc etc etc etc

Executive Summation: TJ understands. We do not. We are gullible and should be pitied.

You did, TJ, I can’t be bothered to wade back through 17 pages to find it.

I can 😀

CharlieMungus – Member

then why say this?
I just don’t think you are very aware of your motivations

There is no conflict.

Can you not understand simple words? you are completely contradicting yourself – are you the red queen?

No, I believe you act the way you say you do.

I just don’t think you are very aware of your motivations

GrahamS

is your comprehension that limited? really that is ridiculous.

You have failed to understand an basic cornerstone of the debate and are not open minded enough to accept that.

if its the only palatable one available. I buy the cheaper ones if they are available assuming I find them palatable. I have tried most of them

More palatable than coke or pepsi or coffee or a glass of water and a ProPlus (other brands are available).

mastiles_fanylion

coke is a lower dose of caffine per unit volume and does not contain taurine.

TJ – why I realise that you do not see an ad in a magazine and think ‘mmm I want a Red Bull’ what you need to realise is that both parts of this…

I buy the cheapest palatable one

…the price and taste are both parts of marketing. Like it or not your purchase is influenced by a marketing decision.

Red Bull for example costs pence to make yet sells for pounds, when a product has that much of a profit margin the price it sells for is a marketing decision.

Even if you choose to buy a cheaper alternative you have been influenced by marketing.

No, I believe you act the way you say you do.

I just don’t think you are very aware of your motivations

Ok, tell me why there is a contradiction there.

I bought it for what it is.

and you only knew what it was because of the marketing.
So you bought something as a result of the marketing. (fine, not only because of marketing, but no-one is claiming marketing is that strong). If there was not an advertising campaign and associated marketing, you would not have picked it up. So you now buy Red Bull (when no other cheaper , palatable option is available), because you like how it tastes and the effect it has on you. So, their marketing worked in getting you to try their stuff.

coke is a lower dose of caffine per unit volume and does not contain taurine.

Agreed but are you ever in such a desperate need for more caffeine than a can of Coke delivers? And if so, why not just a coffee? Or a ProPlus?

Of course you may prefer the taste of Red Bull over coffee but that would show you really are broken.