Chinese carbon frames….

I also race a yacht with a 12k weave mast and spinnaker pole will they come tumbling down? 😉

I no longer have an opinion you are right my friend, I apologise for even doubting what you might have read on the internet.

dunno about yacht masts the ones we did for abn amro 1&2 never failed but the one we did for BMW oracle did go figure im sure the one on the BMW boat came from KING composites though in argentina because it was cheaper

Huh? I’ve not given an opinion, I’m asking for you to back up the seemingly daft claims you’re making. You’re just spouting waffle!

ok im in full agreement

So, anyway. 😀

You off to Pamplona then, hora?

ok im in full agreement

How mature, well done. 🙄

Considering your username it doesn’t seem unreasonable to ask that you back up even one of the claims you’ve made!

– Have you ever looked inside a carbon frame?
– Can you please provide evidence that failures in frames with a 12k finish are ‘extremely common’ and more so than other finishes
– If strength and finish are directly proportional where do UD frames fit it?
– Do you genuinely think that manufacturers change their entire production processes every year for what is otherwise an idential frame?

Pamplona? Yes. I need to do it sooner rather than later as I wont be as sprightly the older I get.

there are supposedly only 60 of the carbon orange road bikes. I would have thought it’d be super expensive to get such a small number made as a one off so I’d say they are stickered up catalogue frames

Definitely

kinda off topic. does anyone remember the name of the company who were buying catalogue frames that turned out to be Orange Prestige restickered?

I’d like an S-Works hardtail frame, can someone point me to the website where I can get one direct for £200 instead of £1500. And also confirm it’s exactly the same frame but without the stickers ? Thanks.

If only it were that easy… There are fake S-Works M5s though!

If I were going to go for a carbon frame, it’d be something like a Giant, Spesh or Trek, or from a composites specialist.

You did realise that Giant is/were a factory untill they started making their own branded stuff? And that Specialized are owned by a company called Merrida, who are the only Tiawanese factory bigger than Giant? The only 3rd party company with a haistory of developing materials/composites I can think of makeing composite frames was the old Proflex/k2 bikes which were made by Easton, in Mexico.

That’s not quite true. Specialized make bikes in the Merida factory (to Spesh spec), but they are a wholly separate company. Trek also make OCLV’s in house in the US and always have done.

You did realise that Giant is/were a factory untill they started making their own branded stuff?

You’re missing my point spectacularly here. It doesn’t matter where the factory is, or if the firm owns the factory or not.

There are hundreds of factories around the world that will make you an object to your or their specification to a price. The one thing they all have in common is that they exist to make a profit. There might be an Artisanal Carbon Knitters commune in Todmorden, but by and large, that’s the way it is.

There’s a problem with this, especially when the factory sets the specs or helps with the design process. The factory know a lot more about the product than you do. This means you have no accurate way of assessing the quality of the goods. They know this, and cutting costs helps their bottom line. The incentives for the manufacturer are all pulling them towards the bare minimum in terms of quality.

My view is that is exactly the situation you’re in if you buy a random frame from the factory, or from a brand that doesn’t know a lot about carbon. It might be great, it might not. I’d sooner spend my £200 on a decent steel or aluminium frame that I can be confident will be alright.

On the other hand, the big bike firms

You have a point but I think its a bit of an extreme case and could be applied to any product from any material.

Still makes me chuckle that people think companies don’t sticker up frames straight from a catalogue

Who thinks that?
Everybody knows that goes on, and that the big boys (Giant and Merida aside) don’t generally actually manufacture their frames themselves. But that doesn’t mean that every frame from a big name is from a catalogue, even if they might be made in the same factory as catalogue frames. Or that all unbranded frames are crap- or that they are any good.

I just read that linked article as saying that, given the above, you pays your money and you takes your choice.

Again, Trek also make their own frames in house (their OCLV’s at least), and always have done.

You have a point but I think its a bit of an extreme case and could be applied to any product from any material.

It could, but the information gap is generally much bigger with carbon than it is with say, a steel or aluminium frame.

People have been building bike frames, car and aircraft parts out of those materials for decades. Assessing whether the frame is actually made out of the material it should be, and whether the joints are any good or not is relatively low tech. As a result, it’s well within the grasp of any bike firm to assess the quality of a factory’s welded frames. The average STW poster could probably give you an opinion…

Carbon, on the other hand, is far less well understood. Which is why I would only buy carbon bikes from firms that either have the resources to buy in the know how, or have the know how themselves.

Some companies buy the mould and have sole rights to it too.

And how do you establish who has or can afford the know how?

That’s obvious to me, the STW forum has every knowledgeable post on the subject 😆

just seen this maybe of interest
Trek vid
interesting when i worked in F1 our carbon shops were a dust and dirt free enviroment everyone had dust suits on hair hat things and over shoes these guys seemed to be in their normal work clothes on not sure how relevent it is

And how do you establish who has or can afford the know how?

If they have it, or they’ve bought it, they generally boast about it and offer a decent warranty…

Specialized, as an example, have written reams of stuff about their testing and R&D.

Once you get to this point, you are talking branding, at the most basic level. A Victorian style stamp of quality, driven by the economics of the situation.

The Chinese can make some bloody good kit. Mrshora has bought her bags from HK for years and I’m not talking about cheesy Prada-stuff. I’ve been into Selfridges etc and the bags are detail-perfect down to internal hidden QC labels in the smallest pockets. Which leads me to think some high end stuff is made in China and ‘finished’ in Italy….

Specialized, as an example, have written reams of stuff about their testing and R&D.

Once you get to this point, you are talking branding, at the most basic level.
Does this explain why the Specialized frame is more expensive than the unbranded frame even though they can come out of the same factory?

So what makes frames made in Taiwan better than ones made in China?

Taiwan IS in China. Who says ALL the Taiwanese factories are in Taiwan and no sub-contracting doesn’t go on or Chinese factories have a Taiwan postal-address or an office/agent based in Taiwan?

Does this explain why the Specialized frame is more expensive than the unbranded frame even though they can come out of the same factory?

Same factory does not mean the same end product, or even a product of similar quality. We’re talking about very small scale production, in factories that might make carbon iphone cases one week, bucket seats another etc.

Undoubtedly an unbranded frame would be cheaper, because Specialized have umpteen selling points and overheads the unbranded seller doesn’t. A large part of it will be retail availability, a guarantee and known quality. Some of it will be marketing bull, glossy ads and a nice paint job.

Of course, some people see the word branding and associate it with the selling of ordinary product with a nice narrative attached and a big price tag and turn purple…

Learn something new everyday. 😉

Again, Trek also make their own frames in house (their OCLV’s at least), and always have done.

Yes, and I expect some of the top end Spesh and Cannondales are made in the US too, and some of the top end Pinarellos are made in Italy. But generally the big brands have their frames made in the Far East.

come on guys, we all know the truth….

…….they are all pretty much the same thing, just different stickers….those On-One frames are what they appear to be…pretty much the same as the cheapos on ebay…which, by the way doesn’t make them bad or even expensive as you’re getting the benefit of local service, warranty, etc. You have no more idea that a Spesh, Trek, On One or anything else is going to last more than one ride until you, er, ride it…no one seems to have jumped in with any nightmare stories of snapped Chinese frames, broken bones, or worse and I suspect there’s a reason for that

…Just an opinion…

BTW – I lived in Pennsylvania for a while some years ago and met someone who worked at a certain large bike manufacturer in the State….their frames (admittedly early 90’s) were costed, ex Factory, painted, at less than $50 and I’d just bought one for nearer to $1,000…..manufactured cost vs price (i.e. margin) is determined by brand….shock!

Here you go, to be fair though all brands fail.

looks like a frontal impact??

Lets face it, most people arguing here know sod all about composites. You may you know a bit but it’s nothing really compared to people who use it every day.

Also most bike riders seem to have a huge irrational bee in their bonnet about composites and will go out of their way to poo-poo them to everyone else. Wake up, they are used in millions of applications around the World in every day life where they outlast metals, can cost less, take more abuse and have lots of benefits. Is it jealousy over someones £4k frame? Ignorance? Unfounded feeling you know better? Some bloke down the pub told you….

A few points about current arguments:

1. yes there are ‘off the peg frames’ – some of them are copies which is pretty useless as unlike metal designs which you can copy easily, composites are all about what goes on under the surface. Fibre types, alignment, thickness, joints, resin system etc etc. Some of them are old models they used to produce for big names who have now moved on to newer designs with new geometry and new features (headset type, BB type, internal cables etc etc).

2. Asian manufacturing of composites makes sense. It needs a lot of manual labour and the people who do it are, on the whole, very good at it. I would rather trust a lot of them than some of the lazy scrotes we have here in the UK. But you do need caution – they can ‘cut corners’ and not realise the consequences.

3. These asian companies who build frames for the big names learn from the big names and can offer advice on joints and manufacturing methods to help reduce costs of future frames by any company – big or large. That means the designers (eg On One) can concentrate on geometry, layup for stiffness and strength where it is needed/not needed and not have to worry if their joint between ‘tubes’ is not easily manufactured or is going to fall apart. If this did not happen then the design costs would be out of the window. Let the big names with big budgets innovate on really novel methods and work with the manufacturing companies and then charge a lot for their latest high end frames to cover the cost. It then filters down.

4. As composites are made of many different layers there is more tolerance to a slight defect. Yes defects are bad and I have a better understanding than most on here about them but one slight misalignment on a bike frame which is conservatively designed is unlikely to have any impact but a tiny defect in a weld on a metal bike can be catastrophic. The total weld area on a metal frame is tiny compared to the total bond area in a composite frame.

5. Composites are not perfect, they are not for everyone so leave it at that.

Oh and the last comment about On One using off the shelf frames – I’m pretty sure I haven’t seen any asian unbranded frame which is the same as my C456.

I have a better understanding than most on here about them

How?

nmdbase – Member
I have a better understanding than most on here about them

How?

Because it’s what I’ve been involved with for the last 8 years.

I’ve been riding and racing a TT bike all year bought from China (dengfu), it’s been amazing. I can’t know that it’s the exactly the same as one sold by a popular brand of bike near Doncaster, but I’ve had a pretty close look at a “Doncaster” bike and to my eye’s it’s identical.

I can’t believe the small manufacturers wouldn’t buy a catalogue frame from expert manufacturers vs trying to design their own.

If you do your research and don’t expect any warranty, I think it’s a great thing to do.

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Velo I was in Bethlehem Pa from 97-99 working at lehigh uni. We blagged a trip to the cannondale factory back in the days when they were known for alloy.
I’ve seen cheap carbon and glass fibre motorbike helmets cut open and there were patches of bare dry fibre with no resin/matrix 😯

I can’t know that it’s the exactly the same as one sold by a popular brand of bike near Doncaster, but I’ve had a pretty close look at a “Doncaster” bike and to my eye’s it’s identical.

Bit of a chicken and egg thing to me. Could be a catalogue item, could be the usual IP problems of having your stuff manufactured in China…