Chinese carbon frames….

Seems odd to just want a “carbon” frame, rather than one with a certain geometry and features.

In many respects, it’s not about marketing. It’s simply not economical for a small firm to put the same time and money into R&D, testing and QA as a large firm if they’re going to hit the same sorts of price points.

The major thing to be aware of here is that there’s a huge information inequality – the layman buyer (either the end consumer or the specifier at the bike firm) cannot easily assess the quality of what they’re buying. The manufacturer will always try to maximise return and that can mean cutting costs. As consumers, we generally aren’t in possession of the specialist knowledge required, and so we pass that task onto the bike firm. If the bike firm don’t have that knowledge, you’re stuffed…

double post…

In many respects, it’s not about marketing. It’s simply not economical for a small firm to put the same time and money into R&D, testing and QA as a large firm if they’re going to hit the same sorts of price points.

The major thing to be aware of here is that there’s a huge information inequality – the layman buyer (either the end consumer or the specifier at the bike firm) cannot easily assess the quality of what they’re buying. The manufacturer will always try to maximise return and that can mean cutting costs. As consumers, we generally aren’t in possession of the specialist knowledge required, and so we pass that task onto the bike firm. If the bike firm don’t have that knowledge, you’re stuffed…

There’s me thinking buying far eastern products direct were cheap cos far east labour and materials are cheap.

Where do you think the big firms get their manufacturing done and how much do you reckon they pay? Or are you saying they have their own locked down factories and staff, with the excluesive rights to quality.

Also what personal experiences are you basing this on?

No I’m not joking about 12k

So you’d write off the Scott Spark, Scale and Genius as cheap because of the cosmetic layer they use? Corking logic, well done! Despite their strident testing.

What about a Chinarello frame with a 1k finish? Is that better quality?

Ask Flow- after all he knows for a fact that the Carbon 456 is ordered out of a catalogue (because it’s obvious innit, think about it, eh?) If you ask him nicely I’m sure he’ll tell you somewhere you can order it cheaper 😉

Kind of interested inthis

It looks a lot likethis

Unfortunately no geom info on the hongfu website that I could find.

I actually think the C456 is quite attractive as far as carbon frames go, it’s just the unpleasant belled head tube and curvy downtube/headtube area that puts me off. But one thing to note is that structural frame design for composites is VASTLY different from frame design for metals – the materials need to be carefully aligned to take the loads and some extra “features” are a must to compensate for composite’s “negatives”, hence a lot of composite bikes look a bit odd compared to their metallic siblings. It’s a sign of reasonable design knowledge behind it (or a dodgy designer, but I give benefit of the doubt!).

Unfortunately no geom info on the hongfu website that I could find.

http://forums.mtbr.com/7744970-post334.html

Cube allegedly sticker up Hongfu frames, they certainly look identical.

i used to have a JBC lightning – made in china…
and would def buy another, branded or unbranded.

For those mocking the ‘cosmetic’ layer – it actually has a purpose – UD (unidirectional) carbon is structurally superior but more susceptible to impact. The ‘cosmetic’ weave layer does, in some peoples opinions (not mine) look nice but it is there as it can be more robust. There are other things you can do though.

Weave materials also behave very differently during curing as the thermal expansions and cure shrinkage changes. Not a huge issue on a bike frame but when you start building things that are 20, 30, 40+ metres long out of composites then you have to pay attention.

Ok.. after 24 hours of singletrack debate I am still not convinced one way or either…

I want a carbon frame cause I dont have one and the misses says says I have 2 hundred quid to spend on ‘me’… 😀

I could just buy some hope brakes, but I am trying to ‘maximise’ 😀

What is your £200 dream (and that really is a max budget… 🙁 )

ps. I have a charge duster ss – ace and a (cough) merida alloy hardtail…. and thats it 😳

Also what personal experiences are you basing this on?

I work in a company that buys a lot of stuff from the far east. It’s not about owning your own factory, employing your own staff etc. It’s about understanding the economics of the situation. There are two major issues – information inequalities, as I mentioned above, and economies of scale.

Say you have two firms selling a frame that hits a £400 price point, one shifts 1000 units a year, one shifts 20000. I’m not in the bike trade, so these are all finger in the air numbers. The actual numbers themselves don’t matter – it’s how the maths works out that does.

If both firms spend 5% of of the sale price on the quality and warranty side of things, the small firm has a budget of £20k, the large firm has a budget of £400k. £20k will get you a buying trip, your CEN tests and some cash set aside for dealing with warranty claims. £400k pretty obviously goes a lot further, and the smart thing to do is to increase the quality and minimise your warranty costs. This saves you money as complaints are very expensive to deal with, and improves the perception of your product, improving sales.

This was pretty well demonstrated a while ago by a thread on warranty lengths. The warranty length matched pretty well with the size of the firm…

There are a whole load of other economies a larger firm can make that simply wouldn’t be possible for a smaller one, and mean there’s more room for quality. Your suppliers suddenly become far less keen to mess you about if you’re 30% of their turnover.

Icetech brakes or 2×10 I reckon.

laugh or cry.

Tron… 2×10 no point! Brakes is the the option..

I love riding, and wil ride my charge duster ss whenever I can…. however, some times I need gears and this is where this discussion started – £200 ish on a carbon frame or not!!

Simples, yeh 😆

Still makes me chuckle that people think companies don’t sticker up frames straight from a catalogue

there are supposedly only 60 of the carbon orange road bikes. I would have thought it’d be super expensive to get such a small number made as a one off so I’d say they are stickered up catalogue frames. does that sticker buy you better R&D? I doubt it.

Probably better R but not better D.

some of the chinese carbon frames have very 90s geometry.

Here is my Chinese MTB, it has just come back from a week in the Alps with my son, with the brakes cooked, wheels on the point of collapse, seals have gone on the forks and a brand new rear tyre worn out but the frame is showing no signs of damage.

That’s because it’s a 3k finish, so according to compositepro it’s better quality than a Scale! 🙄

Njee, My road bike is 12k and that is over 3 years old now and just clocked up another 100k ride yesterday!

compositepro needs to change his forum name 😆

You cant educate pork fella.

Njee, My road bike is 12k and that is over 3 years old now and just clocked up another 100k ride yesterday!

Don’t have to tell me – it was compositepro who linked finish to quality!

Where do UD finishes fit in, as that’s what’s most common these days?! My UD Madone SL is now 8 years old, and has done about 20000 miles!

I linked surface finish because it isn’t surface finish its the entire layup the whole structure right there If you had half a clue and knew anything about moulding and layup you might just find out why a lot of frames using this type of construction fail so easily ,ITS THE CHEAP STUFF FOR BUILDING BIKES and even here in the UK its classed as a bulking fibre

Theres no point in explaining UD because there are many levels of that too just because a cheap frame uses UD you think its better or worse.
IT can be worse ,some of the fibres we use in frames now are mj60 google it then come back and tell me why that’s so much stronger

I linked surface finish because it isn’t surface finish its the entire layup the whole structure right there If you had half a clue and knew anything about moulding and layup you might just find out why a lot of frames using this type of construction fail so easily

Have you ever looked inside a frame? I cut up a Spark frame, and I can assure you that it’s not 12k all the way through…

Theres no point in explaining UD because there are many levels of that too just because a cheap frame uses UD you think its better or worse

That doesn’t even make sense! Most carbon frames these days (from the mass manufacturers) have a UD finish. Trek, Specialized, Scott etc, are you saying that these are entirely differently made to previous models with a 3k/12k finish?

to the OP: look out for a 2nd hand On One frame for about £200-250. No risk of customs charges etc. No warranty but if you break it then maybe on one will do you a deal on crash replacement?

Podge maybe its a spot-buy on existing stock then custom-stickered over? Gauge the response then buy more?

I’d be interested in a long travel carbon frame from China if anyones bought one recently.

There was a good article on no-name frames over on Cycling Tips the other day: http://www.cyclingtipsblog.com/2011/08/are-all-carbon-bikes-created-equal/

How is that a good article? It’s just the opinions of a guy with a vested interest in disparaging no-name frames (as it states he’s designed his own carbon frame which is for sale) speculating that factories in China may or may not be doing things properly, and not stating which ones.

fogliettaz can you remember where you got yours from?

just read the rest of the thread this is definitely not a stickered up deng fu http://www2.cube.eu/hard/hpc/elite-super-hpc-pro/

**** me if we want to jump on the buy em cheap wagon ill do the cad do the layup ask one of the taiwan factories and sell my own.

Or i could just make em here in the UK for similar money

From Cube’s own website? They’re not likely to put their hands up and say “yep, it’s a £200 frame with our stickers on it” are they?

Hora, http://www.hongfu-bikes.com/html_products/MTB-Frame-242.html ask for Jenny, she generally responds via email very quickly.

that’s an ace finish on that hongfu frame..

I guess it’s possible that Cube employs a roomful of engineers and gives them CAD workstations, rapid prototyping 3D printers and a mighty armoury of test rigs just to show to visitors. But I suspect it’s more likely that they do, in fact, design frames there 😉

no one said its not a nice finish I said 12k is shit and the cheapest way of padding out a frame

But you said it’s not ‘padding out a frame’ you said:

it isn’t surface finish its the entire layup the whole structure right there If you had half a clue and knew anything about moulding and layup you might just find out why a lot of frames using this type of construction fail so easily

Can you please provide evidence of frames with a 12k weave being more prone to failure than others? I will also ask again, have you actually cut a frame up and looked inside? Do you honestly think they look the same all the way through!?

You’ve also not addressed the other questions I asked: where does a UD finish fit into your world of finish/frame quality being directly proportional, and do you think companies who change the external appearance of their frame year on year are also totally changing their contstruction methods anually?