[Closed] Chinese carbon frames....

I also race a yacht with a 12k weave mast and spinnaker pole will they come tumbling down? 😉

I no longer have an opinion you are right my friend, I apologise for even doubting what you might have read on the internet.

dunno about yacht masts the ones we did for abn amro 1&2 never failed but the one we did for BMW oracle did go figure im sure the one on the BMW boat came from KING composites though in argentina because it was cheaper

Huh? I've not given an opinion, I'm asking for you to back up the seemingly daft claims you're making. You're just spouting waffle!

ok im in full agreement

So, anyway. 😀

You off to Pamplona then, hora?

ok im in full agreement

How mature, well done. 🙄

Considering your username it doesn't seem unreasonable to ask that you back up even one of the claims you've made!

- Have you ever looked inside a carbon frame?
- Can you please provide evidence that failures in frames with a 12k finish are 'extremely common' and more so than other finishes
- If strength and finish are directly proportional where do UD frames fit it?
- Do you genuinely think that manufacturers change their entire production processes every year for what is otherwise an idential frame?

Pamplona? Yes. I need to do it sooner rather than later as I wont be as sprightly the older I get.

there are supposedly only 60 of the carbon orange road bikes. I would have thought it'd be super expensive to get such a small number made as a one off so I'd say they are stickered up catalogue frames

Definitely

kinda off topic. does anyone remember the name of the company who were buying catalogue frames that turned out to be Orange Prestige restickered?

I'd like an S-Works hardtail frame, can someone point me to the website where I can get one direct for £200 instead of £1500. And also confirm it's exactly the same frame but without the stickers ? Thanks.

If only it were that easy... There are fake S-Works M5s though!

If I were going to go for a carbon frame, it'd be something like a Giant, Spesh or Trek, or from a composites specialist.

[img] [/img]

You did realise that Giant is/were a factory untill they started making their own branded stuff? And that Specialized are owned by a company called Merrida, who are the only Tiawanese factory bigger than Giant? The only 3rd party company with a haistory of developing materials/composites I can think of makeing composite frames was the old Proflex/k2 bikes which were made by Easton, in Mexico.

That's not quite true. Specialized make bikes in the Merida factory (to Spesh spec), but they are a wholly separate company. Trek also make OCLV's in house in the US and always have done.

You did realise that Giant is/were a factory untill they started making their own branded stuff?

You're missing my point spectacularly here. It doesn't matter where the factory is, or if the firm owns the factory or not.

There are hundreds of factories around the world that will make you an object to your or their specification to a price. The one thing they all have in common is that they exist to make a profit. There might be an Artisanal Carbon Knitters commune in Todmorden, but by and large, that's the way it is.

There's a problem with this, especially when the factory sets the specs or helps with the design process. The factory know a lot more about the product than you do. This means you have no accurate way of assessing the quality of the goods. They know this, and cutting costs helps their bottom line. The incentives for the manufacturer are all pulling them towards the bare minimum in terms of quality.

My view is that is exactly the situation you're in if you buy a random frame from the factory, or from a brand that doesn't know a lot about carbon. It might be great, it might not. I'd sooner spend my £200 on a decent steel or aluminium frame that I can be confident will be alright.

On the other hand, the big bike firms

You have a point but I think its a bit of an extreme case and could be applied to any product from any material.

Still makes me chuckle that people think companies don't sticker up frames straight from a catalogue

Who thinks that?
Everybody knows that goes on, and that the big boys (Giant and Merida aside) don't generally actually manufacture their frames themselves. But that doesn't mean that every frame from a big name is from a catalogue, even if they might be made in the same factory as catalogue frames. Or that all unbranded frames are crap- or that they are any good.

I just read that linked article as saying that, given the above, you pays your money and you takes your choice.

Again, Trek also make their own frames in house (their OCLV's at least), and always have done.

You have a point but I think its a bit of an extreme case and could be applied to any product from any material.

It could, but the information gap is generally much bigger with carbon than it is with say, a steel or aluminium frame.

People have been building bike frames, car and aircraft parts out of those materials for decades. Assessing whether the frame is actually made out of the material it should be, and whether the joints are any good or not is relatively low tech. As a result, it's well within the grasp of any bike firm to assess the quality of a factory's welded frames. The average STW poster could probably give you an opinion...

Carbon, on the other hand, is far less well understood. Which is why I would only buy carbon bikes from firms that either have the resources to buy in the know how, or have the know how themselves.

Some companies buy the mould and have sole rights to it too.

And how do you establish who has or can afford the know how?

That's obvious to me, the STW forum has every knowledgeable post on the subject 😆

just seen this maybe of interest
[url= http://pelotonmagazine.com/Special-Features/video/10/874/Made-in-AmericaTrek-in-Waterloo ]Trek vid [/url]
interesting when i worked in F1 our carbon shops were a dust and dirt free enviroment everyone had dust suits on hair hat things and over shoes these guys seemed to be in their normal work clothes on not sure how relevent it is

And how do you establish who has or can afford the know how?

If they have it, or they've bought it, they generally boast about it and offer a decent warranty...

Specialized, as an example, have written reams of stuff about their testing and R&D.

Once you get to this point, you are talking branding, at the most basic level. A Victorian style stamp of quality, driven by the economics of the situation.

The Chinese can make some bloody good kit. Mrshora has bought her bags from HK for years and I'm not talking about cheesy Prada-stuff. I've been into Selfridges etc and the bags are detail-perfect down to internal hidden QC labels in the smallest pockets. Which leads me to think some high end stuff is made in China and 'finished' in Italy....

Specialized, as an example, have written reams of stuff about their testing and R&D.

Once you get to this point, you are talking branding, at the most basic level.

So what makes frames made in Taiwan better than ones made in China?

Taiwan IS in China. Who says ALL the Taiwanese factories are in Taiwan and no sub-contracting doesn't go on or Chinese factories have a Taiwan postal-address or an office/agent based in Taiwan?

Does this explain why the Specialized frame is more expensive than the unbranded frame even though they can come out of the same factory?

Same factory does not mean the same end product, or even a product of similar quality. We're talking about very small scale production, in factories that might make carbon iphone cases one week, bucket seats another etc.

Undoubtedly an unbranded frame would be cheaper, because Specialized have umpteen selling points and overheads the unbranded seller doesn't. A large part of it will be retail availability, a guarantee and known quality. Some of it will be marketing bull, glossy ads and a nice paint job.

Of course, some people see the word branding and associate it with the selling of ordinary product with a nice narrative attached and a big price tag and turn purple...

Learn something [url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/chinese-carbon-frames#post-2923635 ]new[/url] everyday. 😉

Again, Trek also make their own frames in house (their OCLV's at least), and always have done.

Yes, and I expect some of the top end Spesh and Cannondales are made in the US too, and some of the top end Pinarellos are made in Italy. But [i]generally[/i] the big brands have their frames made in the Far East.

come on guys, we all know the truth....

.......they are all pretty much the same thing, just different stickers....those On-One frames are what they appear to be...pretty much the same as the cheapos on ebay...which, by the way doesn't make them bad or even expensive as you're getting the benefit of local service, warranty, etc. You have no more idea that a Spesh, Trek, On One or anything else is going to last more than one ride until you, er, ride it...no one seems to have jumped in with any nightmare stories of snapped Chinese frames, broken bones, or worse and I suspect there's a reason for that

...Just an opinion...

BTW - I lived in Pennsylvania for a while some years ago and met someone who worked at a certain large bike manufacturer in the State....their frames (admittedly early 90's) were costed, ex Factory, painted, at less than $50 and I'd just bought one for nearer to $1,000.....manufactured cost vs price (i.e. margin) is determined by brand....shock!

Here you go, to be fair though all brands fail.

[img] [/img]

looks like a frontal impact??

Lets face it, most people arguing here know sod all about composites. You may you know a bit but it's nothing really compared to people who use it every day.

Also most bike riders seem to have a huge irrational bee in their bonnet about composites and will go out of their way to poo-poo them to everyone else. Wake up, they are used in millions of applications around the World in every day life where they outlast metals, can cost less, take more abuse and have lots of benefits. Is it jealousy over someones £4k frame? Ignorance? Unfounded feeling you know better? Some bloke down the pub told you....

A few points about current arguments:

1. yes there are 'off the peg frames' - some of them are copies which is pretty useless as unlike metal designs which you can copy easily, composites are all about what goes on under the surface. Fibre types, alignment, thickness, joints, resin system etc etc. Some of them are old models they used to produce for big names who have now moved on to newer designs with new geometry and new features (headset type, BB type, internal cables etc etc).

2. Asian manufacturing of composites makes sense. It needs a lot of manual labour and the people who do it are, on the whole, very good at it. I would rather trust a lot of them than some of the lazy scrotes we have here in the UK. But you do need caution - they can 'cut corners' and not realise the consequences.

3. These asian companies who build frames for the big names learn from the big names and can offer advice on joints and manufacturing methods to help reduce costs of future frames by any company - big or large. That means the designers (eg On One) can concentrate on geometry, layup for stiffness and strength where it is needed/not needed and not have to worry if their joint between 'tubes' is not easily manufactured or is going to fall apart. If this did not happen then the design costs would be out of the window. Let the big names with big budgets innovate on really novel methods and work with the manufacturing companies and then charge a lot for their latest high end frames to cover the cost. It then filters down.

4. As composites are made of many different layers there is more tolerance to a slight defect. Yes defects are bad and I have a better understanding than most on here about them but one slight misalignment on a bike frame which is conservatively designed is unlikely to have any impact but a tiny defect in a weld on a metal bike can be catastrophic. The total weld area on a metal frame is tiny compared to the total bond area in a composite frame.

5. Composites are not perfect, they are not for everyone so leave it at that.

Oh and the last comment about On One using off the shelf frames - I'm pretty sure I haven't seen any asian unbranded frame which is the same as my C456.

I have a better understanding than most on here about them

nmdbase - Member
I have a better understanding than most on here about them

How?

Because it's what I've been involved with for the last 8 years.

I've been riding and racing a TT bike all year bought from China (dengfu), it's been amazing. I can't know that it's the exactly the same as one sold by a popular brand of bike near Doncaster, but I've had a pretty close look at a "Doncaster" bike and to my eye's it's identical.

I can't believe the small manufacturers wouldn't buy a catalogue frame from expert manufacturers vs trying to design their own.

If you do your research and don't expect any warranty, I think it's a great thing to do.

[url= http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5230/5743927504_7fd0482ef9.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5230/5743927504_7fd0482ef9.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/adamtitley/5743927504/ ]exocet[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/adamtitley/ ]a_titley[/url], on Flickr

Velo I was in Bethlehem Pa from 97-99 working at lehigh uni. We blagged a trip to the cannondale factory back in the days when they were known for alloy.
I've seen cheap carbon and glass fibre motorbike helmets cut open and there were patches of bare dry fibre with no resin/matrix 😯

I can't know that it's the exactly the same as one sold by a popular brand of bike near Doncaster, but I've had a pretty close look at a "Doncaster" bike and to my eye's it's identical.

Bit of a chicken and egg thing to me. Could be a catalogue item, could be the usual IP problems of having your stuff manufactured in China...

andyl - Member

Oh and the last comment about On One using off the shelf frames - I'm pretty sure I haven't seen any asian unbranded frame which is the same as my C456.

That was me taking the piss out of Flow, rather than a serious comment- though I see he's popped up in here with more of the same nonsense just as if he didn't make an idiot of himself last time 😉

no one needs the noddy suits anymore Ade (though there are certain things that are nasty)

Maybe some of you would like to come and see how a frame is made it seems that might be the easier option

http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12751016 page 5 of this thread shows that the planetx nanolight is an FM-R830 from Xpace, and the previous tt bike was at one point badged as a ridley and ridden by Cadel Evans in the tour de france

the DeRosa and Ribble are also the same bike, the italian brand is deda but the chinese frame is a pedalforce

Maybe some of you would like to come and see how a frame is made it seems that might be the easier option

Oo, you're back. Can you please answer my queries, particularly as you're continuing to suggest you know more than most, with no evidence to support your ramblings.

Feel free to drop me a line via email if you want your more than welcome to come up here dunno where your based and have a butchers round, You may enjoy it and get a free frame out of the whole thing Im pretty sure you will get more out of it than my ramblings on here.In fact secretly I'm hoping you might be able to tell me a few things

Are you drunk?!

No fella its the only time i get to catch up on stuff.
Why would i be drunk? Its a monday

So are these old stock or copies of Pinerallo?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/100-Carbon-Fiber-Road-Racing-Bike-Frame-Fork-50-58-/160571821134?pt=UK_sportsleisure_cycling_bikeparts_SR&var=&hash=item6b1b647587#ht_2156wt_929

Those are the famous Chinarellos, some places will even do them with all the Pinarello decals, they look identical to the 'real thing'.

You have no more idea that a Spesh, Trek, On One or anything else is going to last more than one ride until you, er, ride it

Dunno about that. I'd certainly have more faith in something made by a big brand than by some bloke in his shed.

Not saying that's necessarily the comparison between big brand stickered frame and unbranded Chinese special, some of them might be awesome. Point is you just don't know, whereas with a big name you do. Sort of, anyway- obviously failures happen, but still.

A Chinese factory isn't a amateur in a shed. Nowhere near.

A Chinese factory isn't a amateur in a shed. Nowhere near.

You're right.

Not saying that's necessarily the comparison between big brand stickered frame and unbranded Chinese special, some of them might be awesome

You have no more idea that a Spesh, Trek, On One or anything else is going to last more than one ride until you, er, ride it

Dunno about that. I'd certainly have more faith in something made by a big brand than by some bloke in his shed.

You have more [i]faith[/i] in the big brand, but as said you don't [i]know[/i] it's going to last until you ride it.

At the end of the day, no one's forcing people to buy a cheap frame! I don't know of any surprising failures, in fact the only failure I'm aware of full stop was someone who bought one as a jump bike to see how it lasted, and it lasted a couple of years. I've had one, I'd certainly have another. I also have some 'big brand' carbon frames, I have no more or less faith in them TBH!

Four pages of discussion and I am still no wiser...

Am off to my LBS to order some hope brakes - at least I know they will work, and if they dont they will be fixed! (and I do need some brakes!)

I would still love a carbon or ti frame but dont have the cash, so I will have to wait...

Thanks for all the thoughts! 😆

ooooh some amazing things have come out of sheds!!

I would still love a carbon or ti frame but dont have the cash, so I will have to wait...

A carbon frame can easily be cheaper than new Hope brakes, so you DO have the money! 🙂

Four pages of discussion and I am still no wiser...

I'll sum it up for you.

Carbon frames are not all equal, unfortunately there is no information given out about manufacturing techniques, carbon used, cure times etc.

This means you don't know what your buying whether it is cheap or expensive, you pay your money and take your chances. If you buy from a known brand you get a warranty and some fancy paint along with a [i]feeling[/i] that it may last longer.

No one can prove that expensive branded is better until someone is willing to buy a range of cheap and expensive frames and independently test them to destruction.

So, to sum up my summary.
Cheap is cheap because it has no warranty and it may colapse beneath you, your not really sure if it will or wont.
Expensive is expensive because it has a warranty, may collapse beneath you but at least you don't think it will.

HTH 🙂

Those are the famous Chinarellos, some places will even do them with all the Pinarello decals, they look identical to the 'real thing'

Folk are prepared to buy cheap steel or ally frames from China, why is plastic so different?

Maybe some of you would like to come and see how a frame is made it seems that might be the easier option

I would. I like seeing the contrasts between how different companies and industries work with composites. Aerospace, renewable energy and F1 - all very different approaches. I have to say a certain F1 team probably surprised me the most due to little details.

That's not quite true. Specialized make bikes in the Merida factory (to Spesh spec), but they are a wholly separate company

They own 19% of them (according to Wiki, for some reason I had a figure of 40% in my head).

According to Wiki they also own Boardman?

Just cosmetic, or is there more similarity than that? Not that light according to the spec (my £400 PF frame is 1/2lb lighter), but then I'm aware that's the case for carbon offerings from some of the really high end brands (eg Colnago).

Wouldn't like to say, not seen one in the flesh. Dogmas aren't that light, and are made in the far East, so it's possible there are more similarities, but cosmetically they really are similar.

They own 19% of them (according to Wiki, for some reason I had a figure of 40% in my head).

Either way, it's a minority stake, not really the same as being owned by them!

A carbon frame can easily be cheaper than new Hope brakes, so you DO have the money

+1

No one can prove that expensive branded is better until someone is willing to buy a range of cheap and expensive frames and independently test them to destruction.

And that would only show on those specific examples anyway. You may have a Spesh with a 'flaw' that breaks, whilst a $200 Chinese one is far superior, or vice versa.

Basically... there's plenty of first hand evidence to suggest the frames are absolutely fine, and plenty of internet scaremongerers who (possibly in a valid fashion) decree they are unsafe for use and wildly inferior to the more expensive 'brands'. There are very few first hand horror stories (of the MTBs at least, I've seen a couple of broken road forks), in fact I've not found a single one, and I did quite a bit of digging prior to buying one.

Four pages of discussion and I am still no wiser...

njee20,

'A carbon frame can easily be cheaper than new Hope brakes, so you DO have the money'

I have a couple of hundred quid - I would keep my currant Merida alloy frame just in case, but I do have a very limited income so my question to you is - is it worth spending the money on the frame, or should I just buy some brakes that is second on my wish list, behind a stiffer frame??

Cheers!

I would. I like seeing the contrasts between how different companies and industries work with composites. Aerospace, renewable energy and F1 - all very different approaches. I have to say a certain F1 team probably surprised me the most due to little details.

Which F1 one team was that?

 

I'm probably entering the rhelms of generalisation but us English on one hand like a bargain when its day to day stuff but on other hand for our 'downtime'/hobbies we like to feel assured that we are buying 'the best' (i.e. paying the money).

andyl seems to be the only person talking sense here.

There's a hell of a lot of unknowns in the whole thing and nobody here knows the intricate details of how the different frames are laid up. Two superficially identical frames could be very different indeed when you cut them open. Bottom line though - anyone who thinks a £200 frame is the same as a £1000 frame is clearly mental. They probably also shop at Aldi and drive a Kia because they're just as good as Waitrose & BMW. Everyone knows that. It's obvious.

Oh, to the person who claimed the factory price of a certain US frame was $50 - that's utter BS. That wouldn't even cover the materials & labour, let alone the cost of actually running the factory.

There's a lot of conspiricy theorists here, convinced that everything costs tuppence to make and the big evil corporations just make up the prices randomly 🙄

Sundayjumper you've just confirmed what I wrote above... ^^^

Cost to product at factory can be TOTALLY different to landed cost.

Bottom line though - anyone who thinks a £200 frame is the same as a £1000 frame is clearly mental.

andyl seems to be the only person talking sense here.

nobody here knows the intricate details of how the different frames are laid up

some of them do, like I offered njee he wants to come and see how he's more than welcome

Total finger in the air (but from a specific frame/shop that told me one bit)

£1700 retail (but take off 20% VAT from that)
£999 cost to retailer.

Next bit
Say £300 to the importer's cut
Import duty off that as well? Say 5%?
Remove the shipping and admin costs (guess another 5%)

Remove the cost of the shock to the manufacturer- say he gets a bulk/special deal at £100 for each RP23

Then take off the manufacturers margin which I imagine would be generous (or why bother?)

So its quite small?

Bottom line though - anyone who thinks a £200 frame is the same as a £1000 frame is clearly mental. They probably also shop at Aldi and drive a Kia because they're just as good as Waitrose & BMW. Everyone knows that. It's obvious.

Bottom line though - they do just the same job (unless you're the sort o sucker who cares about perceived quality/image/status etc.)

Crikey ,,, lots of opinions !!!

Is there any reason for the Carbon frame to feature so high on the shopping list ? Speaking from my personal (read please don't slaughter) I found carbon frames to offer very little benefit, in fact in a lot of situations I found it worse.

I owned both a S-works stump jumper, followed by a Carbon Marathon frame built up with basically the same components. Never really felt comfortable on either. In my language I found both very "twangy", and the vibrations a killer on longer rides. After selling on both I found a decent cheap M5 stump jumper frame here on STW and figured I'd use it as a cheap build up.

Never been happier ! Am happy to chuck it in the back of the car without fear someone else's peddle is going to punch a hole in it, it doesn't go all fluffy where my heels rub against it, the laquer doesn't flex from rock strikes and chip off, I can paint it when I get bored ... to name but a few.

As an indication I have an old K2 Zed team frame in the loft, the rear stay is almost folded from where it hit a tree. Rode it for another 18 months without losing my life. Would hate to think what a carbon frame would have done in the same circumstances (of chinese or any other origin).

Bottom line though - anyone who thinks a £200 frame is the same as a £1000 frame is clearly mental.

I'm very convinced that my £400 PF frame is exactly the same (apart from decals) as the ones Litespeed used to sell for £1000+. PF also come with warranty and have a good reputation - a bit more expensive than ones on ebay, but you do have a bit more confidence in the quality, and a real entity to go back to if you have problems. Could say the same about the good value ones Ribble etc. sell - really don't see the advantage of spending 2-3 times as much for something almost identical from a major brand.

As an indication I have an old K2 Zed team frame in the loft, the rear stay is almost folded from where it hit a tree. Rode it for another 18 months without losing my life. Would hate to think what a carbon frame would have done in the same circumstances (of chinese or any other origin).

Cheap is cheap because it has no warranty and it may colapse beneath you, your not really sure if it will or wont.
Expensive is expensive because it has a warranty, may collapse beneath you but at least you don't think

Spot on me thinks

Well, maybe anything sold in the UK has sales of goods act that a UK consumer has to fall back on?

Also, do bike/frame importers here have an agreement on quality that if any break there is a contribution from the supplier or the frame cost is creditted to the importers account?

Spot on me thinks

Thanks. 🙂

I'd still like someone to convince me either way as I am looking for a new road frame.

Bottom line though - anyone who thinks a £200 frame is the same as a £1000 frame is clearly mental.

My take on it is that sometimes it might actually be the same. Sometimes it might look the same but not actually be the same. Sometimes that difference might actually matter, sometimes it might not. You just don't know.

You have more faith in the big brand, but as said you don't know it's going to last until you ride it.

I don't think that's just blind faith though. It's not in Specialized's (for example) interest to be putting their name on the crap frames rather than the good ones, which leads me to think that they'll be at the safer end of the sepctrum.

I've no doubt there are some cracking frames out there to be had for a fraction of the price as the same thing with big brand stickers on. Also I've no doubt there's some crap out there.

I've no doubt there are some cracking frames out there