Catholic Church and other religions!

I doubt any schools are ‘determined to harm’ children, but that doesn’t meant the state should be funding religious indoctrination.

….doesn’t meant the state should be funding religious indoctrination.

You do realise that the catholic church, for example, in effect subsides the education of children who attend their voluntary aided schools ? You do realise that the catholic church, for example, in effect subsides the training of state sector teachers in places such as St Mary’s University College ? You do realise that catholic parents pay taxes ? You do realise that according to the last UK census the majority of the population, that would be the tax-paying population, profess to have a religion ? Don’t you ?

Yes thanks.

It’s not the money I’m worried about btw, it’s the principle.

You do realise that according to the last UK census the majority of the population, that would be the tax-paying population, profess to have a religion ? Don’t you ?

I wonder what that figure would be if people were left to make up their own minds about religion as adults, rather than indoctrinated from an early age.

JY it may be simplified but it simply isn’t accurate. Not sure why Rowan Williams is relevant to the RC either – have I missed a major theological transformation?! But you are helping the cause of those who argue for more religious “education” not less! But why the atheist angst? If not merely a troll, then there has to be substance. The RCs define hell as separation from “Almighty God,” Since the latter does not exist then the whole issue and argument is redundant. Unless of course…..

Yes 14 pages in , and that’s exactly the case. But grum sheds some interesting light on the matter. As for the straw man, those who chose to be tolerant of others’ beliefs have been accused earlier of guilt by association. That must include me. And if posts are to be believed that makes me guilty of a range of sins (?) from force feeding nonsense to impressionable young children, child abuse and genital mutilation. Now that sounds pretty evil to me.

I wonder what that figure would be if people were left to make up their own minds about religion as adults, rather than indoctrinated from an early age.

Could possibly be just the same. I know a lot of people who came to some sort of faith as adults rather than having gone through a church going or religious school childhood

CharlieMungus – Member

Has anyone given an example of an individual telling them they are immoral and condemned to hell?

I have. It was great! A little christian anti-gay group set up outside a theatre venue near where I was working, I wandered past and they were getting stuck into a guy who I think was a member of staff there. I got a wee bit involved, and the next thing I knew, got condemned to hell. They were very pleased about it all.

They also didn’t seem to understand that you can defend someone against a gay-bashing mob of goons without being gay yourself- just didn’t register with them at all. Very elastic levels of belief, some people. Believe in God? Why not. Believe in heterosexuals who don’t hate gays? MADNESS!

Not sure why Rowan Williams is relevant to the RC either

Only one[religious] I can name who is religious and articulate

But why the atheist angst?

Ah Hom?

If not merely a troll

Ad hom and given your rreason for why folk dislike the schools lol

those who chose to be tolerant of others’ beliefs

Your are right some aethists are tolerant what we need is some tolerant religious views 😉
The tolerance argument is [generally]a misnomer as tolerance really means to allow them to continue to have their privledged position in society. I cannot have a school that does not deliver RE or an act of worship. I am not demanding the right to deliver aethism in their schools so who exactly is being intolerant?

I wonder what that figure would be if people were left to make up their own minds about religion as adults, rather than indoctrinated from an early age.

Maybe simular to the United States where they keep religion out of state funded schools ?

I have. It was great! A little christian anti-gay group set up outside a theatre venue near where I was working, I wandered past and they were getting stuck into a guy who I think was a member of staff there. I got a wee bit involved, and the next thing I knew, got condemned to hell. They were very pleased about it all.

I can believe you did. however, it is very very unlikey it was a mainstream denomination and less so Catholic. It is not useful to discuss Christianity in general,by referring to these evangelical groups which most mainstream christians in the UK at leat, think are crazy A bonkers too.

This might serve to clarify then. Do you think the NHS is pervasive?

Yes. I am not sure how anyone could think otherwise tbh…

Well i think many would say it is not pervassive because it is not unwelcome. i would, at least. Pervasive in general is a bad thing to be. I quite like the NHS being around, everywhere.

the next thing I knew, got condemned to hell

Ah.. semantic point.. you were TOLD that you were condemned to hell, but afaik only God can actually condemn you, no?

they keep religion out of state funded schools ?

They do try, but they still have God mentioned in the daily pledge of allegiance.

But not a member of the RC church (Rowan Williams)? Why not accuse him of opposition to women bishops as well? That would be just as inaccurate.

Only an ad hom if the cap fits, but you are regular in your antagonism towards the church, so I think that it is only fair that you are accurate when accusing it/them of something. But seriously, why the angst about hell, it has no relevance to you at all since you are an aethism. Why worry about others telling you that you will be separated from something that you know doesn’t exist. It makes no sense to be agitated by that whatsoever. Hence the (general not ad hom, at least not intended) reference to trolling!

As E_L said, perhaps that alleged position of privilege reflects their majority representation in our society. The trouble with democracy in a nutshell – ends in the tyranny of the masses, or intolerance at best. Shocking!

they still have God mentioned in the daily pledge of allegiance.

No wonder they are a nation of religious nutters 😐

we must read different threads then as i gave one as did others[Grum and rusty iirc].
I dont think there is any actual dount about what the abrhamic religions say about what happens to sinners so I am not sure what you would expect them to say

I think , unless I missed the post, that all of these cases, what has been identified is that here doctrine might tell people under what circumstances they are condemned which is different to condemining them. I was asking for ( and still am really) examples more like the one Northwind posted, but spoke by someone in the Catholic Church. I continually get excerpts of decontextualised doctrine. it’s not that i don’t know the stuff is there, but there are a large number of qualifiers which are important in the overall message.

I can believe you did. however, it is very very unlikey it was a mainstream denomination and less so Catholic. It is not useful to discuss Christianity in general,by referring to these evangelical groups which most mainstream christians in the UK at leat, think are crazy A bonkers too.

Yes, because what those crazy nutjobs said is completely different from when the Catholic Church says you will burn in eternal hell for not following the commandments. 😕

And yes you’ve made the extremely tenuous distinction before, and it still isn’t in any way convincing.

Reasonable sure at least some of them would have identified as catholic- wearing celtic strips. But that’s a bit of a leap, i didn’t ask what flavour of nutjob they were.

Ah.. semantic point.. you were TOLD that you were condemned to hell, but afaik only God can actually condemn you, no?

Actually, the RC church would not even know if you were condemned or not. So would not be able to twll any individual if they were condemned. Hence i am surprised to hear people say they have been told this.

Reasonable sure at least some of them would have identified as catholic- wearing celtic strips. But that’s a bit of a leap, i didn’t ask what flavour of nutjob they were.

Well, next time you should. Otherwise you end up tarring everyone with the same brush.

Yes, because what those crazy nutjobs said is completely different from when the Catholic Church says you will burn in eternal hell for not following the commandments

Erm… Yes. I really can’t see why you think the ditinction is trivial.

So Grum, where do the RCs argue that you will burn in hell if you do not follow the 10Cs?

CharlieMungus – Member

Otherwise you end up tarring everyone with the same brush.

Oh dear.

THM – already quoted in this thread. From catholic.com

“If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment” (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).

Lots more similar stuff here.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-hell-there-is

Oh dear

Well, it must be Stephen Fry, after all Oscar Wilde is dead. you make a very good point, well said.

Oh dear.

“If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment” (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).

10 commandments aren’t the same as what Jesus said, are they?

Oh dear.

Everyone else has played very nicely in this thread. Except you, young man.

Lots more similar stuff here.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-hell-there-is

Including this…

Thus the issue that some will go to hell is decided, but the issue of who in particular will go to hell is undecided.

unless I missed the post, that all of these cases, what has been identified is that here doctrine might tell people under what circumstances they are condemned which is different to condemining them. I was asking for ( and still am really) examples more like the one Northwind posted, but spoke by someone in the Catholic Church

Ah right so all the examples are not quite precise enough for you and yet you still have a point 🙄
this is why “debating” with you is a relatively tedious semantic excrcise. you are clearly bright but your talents are wasted, IMHO, doing thi ssort of stuff. i leave it to thers to engage with you as they have faith they will get somewhere and I do not

But not a member of the RC church (Rowan Williams)? Why not accuse him of opposition to women bishops as well? That would be just as inaccurate.

You are running with an example that is pointless would you like me to say again why i used him – tbh I have no idea why everyone has suddenly fixated on catholics as opposed to religious all of a sudden. I have not done this

so I think that it is only fair that you are accurate when accusing it/them of something.

Again the view that the religious think the non religious who do not follow the word of god are going to hell is accurate whatever you wish to say. Not much point in worshipping obeying praying and acting in a certain way if there are no rewards for this v those who ignore it.

But seriously, why the angst about hell, it has no relevance to you at all since you are an aethism. Why worry about others telling you that you will be separated from something that you know doesn’t exist. It makes no sense to be agitated by that whatsoever.

It was answered before I dont think i claimed to be loosing sleep over it or “angst” what i said was the mesasage that my moral code is so bad that i will go to hell is not a nice one [ hence CM asked for examples that are still not good enough]. Do i believe it no – I dont believe white supremacists message of aryan superiority either but i find that offensive/not that nice as well
– we debated it a lot of pages back

Seriously Charlinemungus, let me just recap.

CharlieMungus – Member

Has anyone given an example of an individual telling them they are immoral and condemned to hell?

Me: Yes, with example.

You: Inexplicably accused me of “tarring everyone with the same brush”

Me: Oh dear

This is “not playing nicely”? I do apologise for answering your question.

10 commandments aren’t the same as what Jesus said, are they?

He never withdrew them but it is true to say he rewrote certain aspects of the covenant with god

For example lex talions [ eye for an eye] was countered with “turn to him the other cheek”
He was a bit nicer and a bit less fire and brimstone hence good samaritan etc
I know of no christian faith that rejects the 10 commandments though there probably is one somewhere

Me: Yes, with example.

You: Inexplicably accused me of “tarring everyone with the same brush”

Me: Oh dear

This is “not playing nicely”?

Maybe you missed the pint where we were talking about Catholics.
You also missed out the bit in the conversation where you assumed that some of them were catholic and that you didn’t ask the what flavour of ‘nut job’ they were. That was the tarry not nice bit. But you seemed to have omitted that from your summary of our conversation.

tbh I have no idea why everyone has suddenly fixated on catholics as opposed to religious all of a sudden. I have not done this

Well it’s a key word in the title and at the start of the discussion, I said i was surprised that anyone had condemed anyone else to hell, and that it was unlikely to be a Catholic as the Catholic Church have never done this. It is not useful to discuss beliefs when the belief under discussion keeps changing. Okwe drifted somewhat with the CofE in school, but that’s probably ok, though i know less about them and their beliefs.

Thanks Grum, I had missed that. I guess I will have to weigh that quote up against the Cathecism (Q171) which states,

“We show that we love God by keeping his commandments, for Christ says, “if you love Me, keep My commandments.”

Now I know that I am not a RC, so may not understand this. But like the definition of Faith I gave earlier, there seems a very clear element of free will here and one’s choice to love a God. I am happy to be corrected but the RC’s own owner manual still does not seem (IMO) to be doing what you accuse it of.

JY, I would suggest that the thread title gives a strong view why there is a fixation?

CharlieMungus – Member

Maybe you missed the pint where we were talking about Catholics.
You also missed out the bit in the conversation where you assumed that some of them were catholic and that you didn’t ask the what flavour of ‘nut job’ they were. That was the tarry not nice bit.

Oh, the bit where you didn’t specify catholics, but expected people to know what you meant? And then the bit where you imagined I’d said something I didn’t? Fair enough.

I have inferred, not assumed, that they may have been catholics. Scotland + christian fundamentalism + Celtic strip = strong likelihood of catholicism. But where you got “tarring everyone with the same brush” I simply don’t know.

JY, I would suggest that the thread title gives a strong view why there is a fixation?

What the bit about other religions? 😉
OK fair point THM , CM Internet not loosing face aside but the debate has stayed broad and i was never soley referring to them and mentioned other faith schools

All this talk of hell makes me glad to be Orthodox. Our definition of “hell” is simply the “absence of God”. Can’t see that upsetting anyone!

Exactly Vicky. It’s odd that people choose to find this quite so upsetting!

Yes, and the concept of free will is a really important one.

…don’t I am currently supervising a determinism essay, hence the need for some STW distraction!!!

Exactly Vicky. It’s odd that people choose to find this quite so upsetting!

‘Choose to find it upsetting’ is a bit of mealy-mouthed phrase. You could just as well argue Christians are ‘choosing to be upset’ when people dismiss Christianity as nonsense etc.

Again I dont think anyone is actually getting upset about it – why do you keep using words to describe others views that they have not used and give them causes never mentioned?

EDIT:Actually grum is right can i be rude about them and their beliefs and all will be fine as after all they think i am wrong?
Its not a great argument tbh

I don’t get upset when people say Christianity is nonsense. People are free to believe whatever they want. One of the few things that gets my back up is when people say that science and religion are incompatible, and assume that all Christians are Creationists and don’t believe in evolution.