Car horsepower…is it just me…

When people start to describe how they love to drive then go on about the twisty roads etc they tend to turn out to be the idiot throwing it into corners or taking chances or the git with leather driving gloves doing 20mph.

Assuming we’re not talking about boy racers under the age of 25 here, I think you’ll find the “old gits” are the next most at risk group of drivers, especially as they are usually blissfully unaware of anything that’s happening around them.

Personally I’d rather be driven by someone who enjoys driving, and thus is actively engaged in the task at hand. People who aren’t interested in a task tend not to perform it so well…

Not solely aimed at him, I get the feeling most people on this thread suffer from this. Either because they have a fast car and overtake stuff (thus proving they’re really good drivers), or because the stick rigidly to the speed limit and never take any risks (thus proving they’re really good drivers).

David probably suffers from illusory superiority in other areas too 🙂

stilltortoise

It’s interesting to note those who, on threads like this, can’t separate the enjoyment of driving from risk. Those who enjoy driving aren’t all on the limit, recklessly endangering everyone else who gets anywhere near them and aren’t all breaking the speed limit at every opportunity in the pursuit of enjoyment.

When a tree falls and there’s no one around to hear it, does it make a sound?

When a driver accelerates quickly, or does anything that might be considered enjoyable in a car, regardless of the circumstances, is he worse than a pedophile?

The answer to both questions is yes*

*I don’t know what the answer to the first one is.

Cougar – Moderator
Or have I just dreamt the entire thing?
Nope. Ford have “endowed” the latest Focus RS with just that feature.
Although after listening to someone who’s just taken delivery, it’s not something the driver can de/activate.

1980’s Fiesta XR2 96BHP 900kg

2013 Fiesta ST 196 BHP 1200kg

Says a lot.

Nope. Ford have “endowed” the latest Focus RS with just that feature.

Well that’s just depressing. I know that VW do it with the Golf R but I thought Ford were better than that. Sadly I’m just about to get rid of my Focus ST (the old 2.5l one) that made an awesome noise and whilst the new car will be better in almost every way (more powerful, more economical, more practical) I will miss that sound.

gobuchul

Says a lot.

Makes you think.

Back to bhp. OEM’s also de-tune an engine to place it’s performance in their range of vehicles, commensurate to it’s pricing structure.

Example;
I have a car with an engine found in a number of cars in that OEM’s range. In my car that engine produces ‘X’ although that same engine is capable of reliably producing ‘X’ plus 65 bhp.
The only reason I can see for this is this way, the OEM in question can charge a premium for the faster car, which the OEM would possibly be unable to charge if my car had the additional 65bhp and identical “performance”.

This is not unique to the F RS, it’s depressingly commonplace now because turbocharged engines mostly sound like a hoover. (See also F1)

However, it is not the feature Cougar is talking about. I think he means the Renaultsport Clio, which allows switchable sound generation.

http://jalopnik.com/the-renault-clio-gives-you-the-fake-engine-sounds-of-yo-1697053915

Solo – Member

Back to bhp. OEM’s also de-tune an engine to place it’s performance in their range of vehicles, commensurate to it’s pricing structure.

Example;
I have a car with an engine found in a number of cars in that OEM’s range. In my car that engine produces ‘X’ although that same engine is capable of reliably producing ‘X’ plus 65 bhp.
The only reason I can see for this is this way, the OEM in question can charge a premium for the faster car, which the OEM would possibly be unable to charge if my car had the additional 65bhp and identical “performance”.

Examples please. Otherwise I’ll assume you’re just ignoring the fact that the more powerful car probably has a different injectors, bigger (or better) turbo and associated ancillaries and it probably has bigger or better brakes (eg discs on the rear as opposed to drums) etc etc etc.

gonefishin – Member
I will miss that sound.

I’ve heard folk lament the passing of the 5 cyl engine in that car.
Can’t say I’m familiar with it, myself.

However, as well as agreeing with our comment about what Ford have done to the Focus RS. I also has a confuse on this issue as the car has had it’s engine specifically adjusted to make a few pops and bangs, naturally. Weird by the sounds of it. I think that should have either left the sound enhancement off or at least given the driver the option to deactivate it.

OEM’s also de-tune an engine to place it’s performance in their range of vehicles, commensurate to it’s pricing structure.

I have a 118d and I gather the only difference* between it and the 120d is the engine tuning.

*well, perhaps not the only difference, but the point is that the same engine performance is possible out of the 118d as the 120d simply by tuning/mapping

The only reason I can see for this is this way, the OEM in question can charge a premium for the faster car,

Playing devil’s advocate, I suppose potentially a beefier engine may require upgraded components in other areas to cope with the extra force?

I think he means the Renaultsport Clio, which allows switchable sound generation.

Could well be. It was that sort of system I was meaning, at any rate.

Back to bhp. OEM’s also de-tune an engine to place it’s performance in their range of vehicles, commensurate to it’s pricing structure.

Makes a lot of sense when you think about it.

Less development and production costs for the OEM, just a different ECU.

As above, performance version will have other enhancements that add to cost, brakes, tyres, wheels interior etc.

Customer who doesn’t need or want the extra HP gets a more economical car to insure, run and maintain. Possibly lower emissions/lower VED as well.

retro83 – Member
However, it is not the feature Cougar is talking about. I think he means the Renaultsport Clio, which allows switchable sound generation.

Not sure the issue is whether the feature is switchable or no. But rather that OEMs think it desirable to play you a sound track rather than allowing the car to make it’s own sound, unadulterated by the stereo.
In the case of the Focus RS, the sound system actively cancels some sounds and places other sounds in there.

Make of that what you will.

63% more power/weight
less likely to go through a hedge backwards
more likely to survive it if you do

We have two cars that combined have 1067 bhp. One is that RS6 posted up the other day (actually my other halfs car) and its hilarious. The other is my somewhat broken M6.

I don’t need either of them, but they’re good fun to drive when I get the chance ( I ride to work, or get the train so they’re weekend only). To properly get the best out of them you need to take them on a (big) track. I’ve driven both the ring and Spa quite a few times and its only then that you can properly open it up (more so at Spa, I still don’t know which way the Nurbergring goes after quite a few laps). Duel carriage ways are the only real place you can put your foot down with a somewhat clear conscience and then you run the risk of being pulled. I’d not dare do it on the back roads round our way – too many horses, cyclist and tractors.

Fact is, I doubt such cars will be available or viable in the next ten years and if you can afford it now then why not?

jimjam – Member
Examples please

I didn’t really want to go into detail. I have a V6 TDi, capped off to 245ps with a 0-62 of 6.3. However, if I were to (ahem!)take my car to a certain place, it “may” produce 309ps which makes the car as fast as the ‘S’ version. Hence the OEM isn’t going to be able to charge a premium for the ‘S’ version if my car mirrors it’s acceleration and Vmax. This is my view.

Cougar – Moderator
Playing devil’s advocate, I suppose potentially a beefier engine may require upgraded components in other areas to cope with the extra force?

This is a slightly different issue. In this case the same OEM can get 309ps from my Engine, but decided to place a biturbo onto what is likely to be as close a match to my engine as it can, to get 326ps.
Again this is the output for the ‘S’ version.

It’s about maximizing margin while minimizing costs.
One base engine, designed to reliably produce higher outputs can have it’s higher cost mitigated if you sell a higher quantity of that engine, where you can adjust performance via the ECU and a minimum degree of differing ancillary components.

flange

Fact is, I doubt such cars will be available or viable in the next ten years and if you can afford it now then why not?

Yay for the autonomous car![/url]
Personally I’d have liked to have been in charge in this situation, accident free for 30 years and counting.

flange – Member

We have two cars that combined have 1067 bhp. One is that RS6 posted up the other day (actually my other halfs car) and its hilarious. The other is my somewhat broken M6.

Oh dear what’s up with the M6, mine’s in for a new fuel pump as I type.

less likely to go through a hedge backwards

How do you reckon that?

What modern cars have done is taken the limits of grip to much higher speeds. So instead of loosing grip at 40mph, you loose grip at 55mph, at which point people are not skilled enough to catch it and end up crashing.

more likely to survive it if you do

Well maybe, see above. You are likely to be crashing at a higher speed. You might not get a broken legs or arm, but you are more likely to suffer internal injuries/head injuries than you were back in the day.

I didn’t really want to go into detail. I have a V6 TDi, capped off to 245ps with a 0-62 of 6.3. However, if I were to (ahem!)take my car to a certain place, it “may” produce 309ps which makes the car as fast as the ‘S’ version. Hence the OEM isn’t going to be able to charge a premium for the ‘S’ version if my car mirrors it’s acceleration and Vmax. This is my view.

I’m pretty certain they ‘cap’ bhp to allow it to run on fuel of varying quality and also ensure longevity of the engine. If you’re sticking a warranty of some sort on a car you’ve built, you’re not going to want it on the absolute threshold of what it’ll produce. I had one of my cars remapped and two months later the clutch was shot and it’d done a transfer box

it may well have already been said but,, speed doesn’t kill. Poor decision making kills. Equally powerful cars don’t kill. Driving and making poor decisions about how to drive kills.

Also, there are no dangerous roads, just poor judgement and decisions.

I have all sorts of things in my house that can kill me varying from chemicals to electricity and a big pool of water called a bath. So far, I’ve not made a poor decision that’s allowed any of them to kill me. Will you outlaw everything that could kill you?

Oh dear what’s up with the M6, mine’s in for a new fuel pump as I type.

Spun a shell, nipping it up and bending the crank in the process. If you have the V10, I’m (now) informed that you’re not to run it on the 10/40 they tell you to use but use thinner stuff. Also, the new crank and rods use the same part number but are visibly different parts, much more beefy! But obviously there isn’t an inherent problem with the engine and therefore no need for a recall…..bastards!

I’m pretty certain they ‘cap’ bhp to allow it to run on fuel of varying quality and also ensure longevity of the engine.

No, not necessarily. Loads of companies use the same engine block and just vary the turbo pressure. See the BMW 118d/120d, same engine just different turbo settings. Same with VW who do diesels with the same 2.0 block and different bhp.

Cheap way for them to make extra profit.

I would assume that the engine in an RS6 has different components to the more standard engine, at which point you would be stupid to stress the standard engine.

Also, there are no dangerous roads, just poor judgement and decisions.

This

Over the years I’ve seen the country lanes round my way change. Big signs to tell you there is a corner coming, grippy road surface, reduced speed limits.

Yet there are more crashes, and they keep coming. Its not the road that’s dangerous, its the idiot driving it.

What modern cars have done is taken the limits of grip to much higher speeds. So instead of loosing grip at 40mph, you loose grip at 55mph, at which point people are not skilled enough to catch it and end up crashing.

You can spin this (those puns keep coming) either way:

“What modern cars have done is taken the limits of grip to much higher speeds. The proportion of drivers driving beyond that limit has therefore reduced, hence fewer accidents.”

flange – Member
I had one of my cars remapped and two months later the clutch was shot and it’d done a transfer box
I think there is a wide and varied spectrum of after market remapping.
Some test as OEMs do, taking many months, sometimes more than a year to test, refine and assess before releasing a product.
You pay’s your money….

flange – Member
Also, the new crank and rods use the same part number but are visibly different parts, much more beefy
That really shouldn’t happen for a few reasons.
Ime, each time a part is revised that is only the result of a process which involves new manufacturing and so new, additional funding. Again, ime, such processes rely on issuing a new part number for what should be obvious reasons. However, whether those part numbers make it into the public domain is another issue.
But frankly no OEM should be releasing differing parts with the exact same part number. OEMs I’ve worked for always change either a digit or the entire part number.

Cheap way for them to make extra profit.

Intel have been doing this for years. Historically, the slower CPUs / memory were faster ones which had failed testing at those speeds. As production quality improved and yield increased they just kept the business model. TBH it’s probably the only way to turn a profit; those high-end chips will be the domain of enthusiasts, your average punter isn’t going to want to pay a gazillion quid for the bleeding edge.

“What modern cars have done is taken the limits of grip to much higher speeds.

And added in a load of passive and active safety stuff to boot.

I would assume that the engine in an RS6 has different components to the more standard engine, at which point you would be stupid to stress the standard engine.

Yup the RS Audi’s have completely different engines, brakes, suspension, seats, body panels etc, etc to those used in any regular model. For my RS4 then apart from the basic shell, the only body panel shared with the standard A4 Avant is the roof panel and the boot – everything else is different. Same with what’s under the bonnet, it does share some components with the S4 but mostly it’s all different.

At a guess I’d say it’s only the body shell, some interior stuff (standard VAG components, connectors, trim panels), that’s the same as a regular A4.

Solo – Member

jimjam – Member
Examples please

I didn’t really want to go into detail. I have a V6 TDi, capped off to 245ps with a 0-62 of 6.3. However, if I were to (ahem!)take my car to a certain place, it “may” produce 309ps which makes the car as fast as the ‘S’ version. Hence the OEM isn’t going to be able to charge a premium for the ‘S’ version if my car mirrors it’s acceleration and Vmax. This is my view.

[/quote]

But have you actually checked that they are EXACTLY the same apart from the engine tune? If you’ve checked and this is the case then I apologies but more often than not when you really scrape the surface and check what the difference are there’s a myriad of them, and for good reason eg. smaller lighter turbo will fail sooner if it’s doing the same work as a bigger one.

You pay’s your money….

I wouldn’t mind, but I did! Or at least I thought I did. It certainly wasn’t cheap…

Trying to find the picture of the new shells and crank but its quite interesting how different they are. To the point where a none-technical idiot like me can tell them apart.

FunkyDunc – Member
I would assume that the engine in an RS6 has different components to the more standard engine, at which point you would be stupid to stress the standard engine.
Also consider the RSX will be a low volume car, so the OEM will try to mitigate the cost of low volumes by maximizing component/assembly, commonality.
The V8 block will/should be designed to be shared with all RS cars as well as the non RS, V8 cars in that OEMs range of relevant vehicles.

It relies a lot on the business case for what you’re trying to achieve.
If an OEM needs to bring something to market which provides outstanding performance power/economy, whatever. Then they can go bespoke and take the hit. But for the more main stream stuff, the share holders would like to know the OEM is doing their utmost to commonize and reduce costs where doing so makes a business case.

it may well have already been said but,, speed doesn’t kill. Poor decision making kills. Equally powerful cars don’t kill. Driving and making poor decisions about how to drive kills.

“Guns don’t kill people, people kill people”

The engine block is just one of very many parts.

BMW M12 4 cylinder block

1400hp from 1.5 litres anyone?

Based on the humble BMW M10 engine, used in 80’s 3 series.

Also consider the RSX will be a low volume car, so the OEM will try to mitigate the cost of low volumes by maximizing component/assembly, commonality.
The V8 block will/should be designed to be shared with all RS cars as well as the non RS, V8 cars in that OEMs range of relevant vehicles.

To the point where apparently an AMG C63 is two AMG A45 engines joined together*

*this infofact came from a Merc salesman at the weekend, who was trying to sell me a C63 when I’d gone in there to look at the A45…..so make of that what you will…

However, with only a single turbo, the BMW M12 suffered from approximately 2 seconds of turbo lag

Two seconds! 😆 Amazing. I knew they were a tad on the laggy side, but that is insane.

FunkyDunc – Member

No, not necessarily. Loads of companies use the same engine block and just vary the turbo pressure. See the BMW 118d/120d, same engine just different turbo settings. Same with VW who do diesels with the same 2.0 block and different bhp.

Are they the same though?

My old Ibiza came in 3 different engine tunes; 100, 130 & 160bhp for the 1.9TDi.

I can’t remember all of the changes between them, but the 130 had a bigger turbo than the 100 as well as much bigger brakes.
The 160 (Cupra) had AP racing brakes, a larger turbo, bigger injectors and a front mounted larger intercooler, than the small side-mounted one on my 130 version.

The differences often used to come up on the SeatCupra website, because people used to assume they could buy the 100 version & map it to give the same power as the Cupra “because it’s the same engine”.
Same with the 130 version; you could map it to around 170bhp with no changes (although you’d normally need an uprated clutch before too long), but to go much beyond that you’d have to add a larger turbo, injectors and the FMIC. So people who were planning on going big with a re-map were encouraged to get the Cupra to start with, rather than the 130 version.

A quick google suggests that for the 2 litre VAG CR diesel, the 170bhp has a bigger turbo & more advanced multi-point injectors over the 140bhp version….

Yes.

The BLOCK is the same, but the rest of it isn’t. Turbos, injectors, clutches, gear ratios…