Canyon Quality Problems

Canyon Torque owner here. Zero problems and it survived a week in the Alps and trips to Glencoe, Innerleithen and fort William.

Ach this is why I just lurk normally. right I need to go get them onto the tinterweb so I can get them to post. This is going to take time as I dont keep pictures online other than fb.

boardinbob – dont get me wrong. The bike looked amazing and everything else about it was very well made. No doubt rode brilliant. But Canyon cant keep trying to force customers to accept faulty goods. Out of curiosity, is yours 10 speed? And how do you find its shifting?

ok lets give this a bash. Hopefully the picture will be here.

This is how the 2nd bike arrived. Still sporting the frame problem.

Now bear in mind I am already a customer who has sent one frame back for a problem. The 2nd arrived with brakes calipers resting on the brake disc and you can clearly see screws/spacers/post arent as they should be.

Brake

It also had a scratch right down through all the anodising. I ordered a new frame, not a used or cosmetically damaged one. Why on earth should I accept this in this condition.

scratch

If this works will move on and put the frame issue in one post

Larger pics would help and I am still at a loss as to what your original problem was re-mech.

you can’t change gears so you show a (very small) picture of a brake rotor???

starting to suspect operator error. of technical son-in-law syndrome.

attached on this one is a picture of the hanger to help explain the frame problem.

on the top of the hanger there is threaded hole. A bolt goes through the frame and into the hanger from the top. That wee tab sticking out the top of the hanger goes into a pre drilled hold in the frame.

Without the wee tab, the hanger will turn 360 degree on the bolt that attaches it to the frame.

So.. this wee tab goes into the frame at a specified angle. That angle is the optimum angle to ensure you mech is hanging in the correct position to work.

Torque Canyon Hanger

Now… several bike brands ( large and small) use this type of hanger system. Its does the job fine if the hole is correct.

To show you the problem that occurs when it is incorrect its best to show you pictures using a hanger straightening tool attached to the hanger.

Here is the tool on the bottom of the rim. All is fine. Its where it should be.

hanger tool at bottom

Here is the tool at a 90 degree angle. Its around 35mm out from where it should be!!!

hanger tool further round

This was the first frame/bike. The 2nd frame/bike had a discrepancy on the tool of around 20mm.

Now anyone who has bent a hanger knows how annoying it gets when your mech is a mere 5mm out of whack. Imagine 35mm.

The first bike was unable to work at all. The chain could not stay on any gears. The 2nd could at least keep the chain on the cassette a little.

And… due to the design of hangers being that they are sacrificial in the event of a fall. If you attempt to “straighten” the hanger. By that I mean bend the perfectly correct hanger to suit the incorrect hole, the wee tab breaks off and you need a new hanger.

You can attempt to straighten the hanger a little if the hole is slightly incorrect. But in the case of both these frames, attempting to mend it 20-35mm would result in the hanger tab shearing off.

This is Canyons response yesterday after I advised them I was going to put this information online. They finally gave me a real apology and some explanations.

We have ordered a replacement frame to swap the frame as in minor cases it can indeed happen that due to a welding process, a misalignment can occure – this was there explanation for the hole being in wrong place.

But then further in same email they put this which they blame it on hanger. Now that rubbish. As they sent alternative hangers indivdually which arrive undamaged in bubblewrap and they made not an iota of a difference.

you describe it as a faulty production process of all of our Torque frames? We have a database where we gather warranty cases since 7 years. We have a very god and detailed picture about common failures, weak spots, etc. The fact that the gear hanger bended, has nothing to do with a faulty frame. The gear hanger is a sacrifical part and designed to break in case of outer impact or to much tension on the drive system. During transport,
it can happen that the gear hanger gets bended, this is something we cannot exclude happening.

So… you have all the information to make up your own mind guys! This is just my experience with Canyon.

I’ve got real life stuff to do shortly! But I will try and come back tonight and see if anyone has any questions about these pictures.

B45sher – see above post where I said if the picture posting worked that I would put the frame issue in a single post… jeeze!!

The thing is, i might have gone through the rigmarol of waiting for a 3rd frame. But on receipt of the 2nd frame, I sent them pictures of its problems, very simply asking why have you sent me another unuseable bike.

The reply from one of your names listed above was

I saw the bike only when I checked the packing, its just frustrating. We tried to get it straight and failed.
Sorry.

so… they couldnt fix it. But sent it anyway?

How many female cyclists own a hanger straightening tool ?

Exactly.

So are you saying the hole that the hanger bolts through on the rear dropout, and/or the little locating lug/hole on the hanger itself aren’t straight hence when you mount the hanger and mech they’re at an angle/ squint rather than being straight? If so, that’s bizarre. I can’t see how that could happen. Can you mount the hanger and get it bolted up, albeit it at an angle?

Another question, have you tried and failed to get the derailleur mounted and working or do you just think it looks skewed and you’re using the tool to confirm that?

I fished the pics out to help out.

apinkone’s other half is a bike shop guy and is pretty well known. apinkone herself is an enduro rider, rides the odd race and is well known for crashing pretty hard and breaking limbs!!! We rode in the same enduro race last year and I think in a backyard race down another hill local to here. (most people know me btw. I was involved in setting GpFAR Enterprises Ltd which became some no-name mag and website as well as running a bike company and am local trailbuilder in these parts)

So – what’s happening here is a mech tool has been screwed into the mech hanger hole. Then what you do is swing it round the wheel and it should be equidistant from the wheel (so long as the wheel isn’t buggered as well)

and here it is at the other angle, 180′ round. See how the cylindrical bit is now touching the wheel.

Wow – Maico I am not even going to respond to you anymore. What a sexist comment. Perhaps your just jealous that my tools bigger than your.

BoardinBob – you have some real questions, its hard to explain via words and singular pictures.

But your almost there. The hole for the bolt that attaches the rear frame to the hanger seemed fine on both frames. Its the wee hole drilled in the frame for the lug to rest in that dictates the angle the mech hangs at.

In the interest of doubters.. canyon have investigated and agreed with the findings. There explanation was that during the welding process is to blame for misalignment( **See above where I copied and pasted in italic there exact wording).

But they could not provide me with a frame without this problem. so sent another with same problem, but slightly less prominent. ( and threw in missing brake spacers and a scratch for good measure)

yes.. I have tried deraillers. Even tried another brand new Shimano one to see if it was the mech that was at fault or compatibility uses with the SRAM.

I really did like the bike and wanted one that was in working order. But they just couldn’t supply me with one, then got in a right mess when I asked for refund.

I did put above the what happened with derailler on. The first bike could not hold a chain on. The 2nd would hold the chain but jumped constantly.

Both bike arrived with their mechs attached.

If anyone else is having problems with this information coming from a female. Perhaps go back and read where I said my other half is a bike mechanic, and who started off many moons ago as an apprentice in big Als wheelcraft. Which is well enough known in scotland that you should quit with the trolls comments. He’s taught me loads so far. But there is admittedly stuff I wont touch. I am not allowed near the bearing my DW Link… infact I am not allowed near any bearings. But of course.. where would I find the time with all the dishes to wash, and clothes to iron 🙄

aww shucks thanks rapid.

ace job on the pictures.

yeah, I won that local enduro for the ladies remember! still got my wee bell I won as a prize.

And yup.. good at the injuries. Right now I am on active fun ban after I crashed on north third in June. Missing most of the local race calendar for this year. Shoulder is so badly busted that if there is no marked improvment by 19th September then I will be referred for surgery. 🙁

The canyon was funded by my insurance claim from the accident.

from what I can make out in this picture, this is a standard two part mech hanger that’s quite common nowadays on big bikes. The idea is that it will break before the frame breaks. The lug (see the arrow I put on) locates into a hole drilled into the frame and it is bolted down.

It is crucial that the hole drilled into the frame is EXACTLY in the right place, otherwise the replaceable mech hanger will sit slightly sidey ways. If it sits more than an allowed tolerance, then any normal SRAM or Shimano mech will not work because the chain will not be parallel with the cassette teeth and it will try to jump up the gears or it will try to jump down.

it seems that apinkone’s bike has a problem in this area which means it will not work – no amount of fiddling will make it work as far as I can see. You could try to extrude the hole in the frame but the danger would always be that the replaceable mech hanger would twist under load round the bolt that holds it to the frame.

If it was an old or 2nd bike then I would consider tapping in a smaller 2nd bolt – but this is a brand new bike.

here’s the pic from the disk brake. not really a biggy, it just is missing some washers. What’s happening here is that the adapter hasn’t raised the caliper high enough so that the calipre body is touching the outer edge of the rotor.

As rapidescent says the brake just needs some washers between caliper and mount, you should be able to get them from any shop.
The other issue is a bit more of an issue, presumably it’s a 2013 frame, maybe you could ask for a 2014 frame. Wouldn’t remove all the hassle you’ve had but at least it’d be less likely to have the same issue. That’s presuming the frame has been tweaked a bit for this year.

More pressing issue is how you get out of the kitchen long enough to ride/race/compete 😉

Wow – Maico I am not even going to respond to you anymore. What a sexist comment. Perhaps your just jealous that my tools bigger than your.

Love this. Best put down come back I have heard in a while.

Why should I fix anything. I paid for a working bike.

You wouldnt order a brand new car and keep it when you discovered the wheels wouldnt turn. You would return it for another.

Just because its a bike and the price was cheap doesnt mean you need to accept these faults.

plus one – I dont have any ball and chain. I only enter the kitchen if i’m hungry.

Been watching this thread with interest – I hope Canyon have been too!

apinkone – good on ya for speaking up – bike buying experiences should be shared – both good and bad

Apinkone – how come when you got the second bike and it was so crap out the box you used it ? Your post suggests the reason they wouldnt refund was cos it was used. Maybe I’ve misread it, but surely if it was deeply scored and things misaligned you could have got refund “unused” at that stage ?

Sounds a total nightmare..

Iainc – you have misread. I have at no point and time used any bike[/b]

What I said was that one of Canyons many reasons to refuse my refund was because they ( not me) decided to categorise the bikes as used.

I then had to get them to define their definition of used/unused. Whereby it was decided any bikes i had been in possession of were classed as unused and I was eligible to a refund under the distance selling regulations.

Out of interest, have you tried dropout alignment tools on the frames? If the RH dropout is welded on squint it’d cause this problem, and that’s perhaps more likely than the dropout being machined wrong in the first place.

Bencooper -an answer from my other half who is assuming you are able to understand this answer in mechanics jargon since you asked this question. Answer) its an x-12 syntex (sp?) Bolt through. Frame is inline. Hanger hole squint. Wheels sit straight and are true.

But… Again. We are making no attempt to fix the bikes. Why should we. I paid for a working bike.

Apinekone, I did misread, sorry.

What a crap experience indeed 😥

Got my head round this quite easiliy – as has Ben Cooper (i think 😉

The alignment tool indicates something is out of wack. But that only needs to be a few degrees at the hanger to reference a 35mil tolerance 13″ further out at the rim.

Either:

1. The drop out is distorted or the chainstay / seatstay it’s welded too is distorted (probably during the welding / heat-treating itself)
2. The threaded hole through the drop out is not perpendicular to the drop out / wheel. Possibly not set properly during machining.
3. The threaded hole through the mech hanger (breakaway part)is not perpendicular to the face where it connects to the frame
4. The rear end is misaligned on the drive side.
5. The drop out face is not square.
6. The mech hanger face is not square.

If a new mech hanger (which has been inspected) has been tried then the problem lies in the drop out and or the rear swingarm.

I guess only Canyon would have the tools and inspection equipment necessary to pinpoint the problem precisely if its not the hanger.

I had precisely the same problem on a Cube Fritzz. CRC couldn’t isolate the problem (other than to establish it was not the hanger tab) so the rear end was replaced in its entirety.

here’s a brand new frame (from Canyon’s website). This seems to be a different mech hanger arrangement and different rear brake mounting. what do you think? maybe this is a known problem.

(it was a Torque FRX you got apinkone?)

That’s the same frame/setup with the syntace x12 rear axle

Yes, that’s the Syntace set up – its the same on any bike using that design.

As I set out above there’s a fair bit to (potentially) go wrong. The linkage / drop out in the pic above has a machined slot on the inner face to accept the 142mm axle. If that face isn’t perpendicular to the axle for example – you nip up the axle and the linkage will twist until the two faces are square. Ergo your mech alignment goes out of wack.

This was the case with my bike. I simply inserted the axle (without the wheel) then set a tri square on it. I then set a small steel engineers rule (on the Inner face of the drop out) at what should have been precisely 90 degrees to the tri square. You could see by the angle created bewteen the two straight edges that it was out by fair few degrees. I took some pics and fired them off to CRC. New rear end…

As for how Canyon have dealt with the problem I’d have to re read the post 😉 However, it does highlight the potential pitfalls of distance selling / the Canyon model versus your good ol’ LBS 😉

Yippee… You got it! Thanks to rapddescent for getting those pictures bigger and drawing in the arrows.

Canyon agreed very quickly that the frame was misaligned. The problem was rather than sending a working frame, they sent more duff frames with additional problem, then when I ask for a refund they refused.

After a battle ( and this going public) they have agreed to collect, but will not refund until they have the frame back and they inspect.

I think after all the hassle and since they agree with the fault I should be refunded the same day the courier collects it. Not 2 weeks after the bike leaves here.

keep us informed apinkone on how it goes. Hopefully common sense has prevailed and that Canyon will sort this out.

+ if Canyon do sort this out, then it shows their whilst their customer care processes need a bit of tightening they will have actually sorted out a complicated matter – and that’s a good thing. I’d buy a Torque FX off them too. I need a bike to replace my ageing (but lovely) Bullit.

+ I’d also make a wee suggestion, as an old boy in the trade, that treating your customers by default as criminals stealing bikes is dumbass.

+ It’s worth mentioning to future Canyon customers that bike companies occasionally have production difficulties – it happens – I made a whole business out of the mistakes that Proflex made during the manufacturing of their suspension parts. They key is sorting it all out and keeping that customer loyal so they tell other people and get it sorted.

Hmmm… Definitely will make me think twice about buying a DH bike from them if there are problems this complex. When my Nerve arrived with the mech hanger broken I spent a good half hour trying to work out why on earth I couldn’t get the rear wheel in!

Fair play to apinkone for persisting with getting them to resolve the problem. Seems pretty unlucky that she got two Friday evening special builds in a row though.

Just to confirm, they couldn’t provide me with a frame without the default. The 3rd frame that they offered was to come from a fresh batch of frames being made. With a lengthy waiting time which even if I hadn’t decided on a refund, I would not have waited on.

From your picture rapiddescent- its very slightly different to the 2 frames I seen. But still same syntax bolt and tab system.

Curious – I had no point to perservere with them. My options were to accept the faulty bikes ( which wouldn’t work), or argue for a refund after they refused initially.

Ach.. If they’d had better customer service and not hung up phone,been rude,etc…. Then it might have been worth putting up with waiting on the 3rd frame.

But they had been so bad that I don’t want to deal with this company any longer. There are other company ( mail-order and LBS) who fall over themselves to help you when you find a problems 100% of the time.

That who deserves my money.

I will let you know if they make any contact again.

Bike is sat waiting on courier. I am sat waiting on refund so I can order a bike elsewhere.

The hanger mounting seems similar on a lot of Canyon models

Torque EX

Nerve 29er

Torque FRX
http://www.canyon.com/_en/mountainbikes/series/torque-frx.html

It’s curious that only the FRX frame is distorted. I’ve not read any other posts about this anywhere.

If the hole for the tab on the hanger is squint then you shouldn’t be able to even attach the hanger. If you can then I assume the chain stay or seat stay is skewed. Either way it does sound poor from Canyon

Boardinbob – sorry, but your wrong. Lets agree to disagree. You have been lucky to get your Torque in working order. I am a little envious! It was a thing of beauty.

Maico – Should you not be out polishing your ratchet drivers?

See my earlier post where i said

With a skilled mechanic other half who has seen this frame default more than once. Several of your big name manufacturers use this type of hanger with a tab system.

>It’s curious that only the FRX frame is distorted. I’ve not read any other posts about this anywhere.<

Guess that depends how many forums you are covering / how many complaints are taken on to the web.

As I said, I had an identical problem on my Cube and I’m reasonably certain it was a heat treating / weld alignment issue at that knuckle. You could see it distorting as you screwed in the axle. You’d have thought that’s the one area they’d be running a gauge on, on every frame out the door.

Its a good idea (the Syntace X12) but its not perfect. Despite the fact there’s a male / female interface the mech hanger tab can still rotate a few degrees when you nip up the pinch bolt. That alone is enough to bu88er up the shifting.

Guess that depends how many forums you are covering / how many complaints are taken on to the web.

I read a couple of German forums and Bike Radar.

Alloy bike frames are often realigned after welding. There are videos on Youtube of the process, it’s quite brutal.

I’ve been to Canyon in Koblenz. The bikes are built up and run through the gears.

It’s quite a big operation more than 40,000 bikes a year.

They don’t check each frame alignment on jig as far as I could see, that should have been be done in Taiwan.

Carbon frames are x-rayed for faults.

theblackmount – yes! On all counts.

Also on the complaints… If I knew it was going to be this hard to explain online, and posters would turn on me. I wouldn’t have bothered.

I learned not to buy from Canyon, and not to post on forums a bad review. As neither is easy.