Cameron's speach.

Cameron goes to Munich and claims multi-culturalism doesn’t work.

Hmm, perhaps he should have done some historical research! 😆

didnt merkel give the same speach last year?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451

To be fair, Trevor Phillips (former head of the CRE) said pretty much the same about six years ago: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1055221.ece

of course Trevor cannot be racist, because he’s brown, innit – while Cameron must be racist, cos he’s an evil Tory…

when is his speech on how bad spelling is getting these days?

Quite possibly! 😳

Making a speEch ( :P) in the ancestral home of Nazism isn’t the best idea really.

I find the idea of Cameron’s peach rather disturbing.

z11 are u suggesting cameron is racist?

Hold the front page, Cameron in “tell’em what the want to hear” shocker.

tell who what they want to hear, this lot…..?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-12372713

ps i was born in luton so this makes me sad

At a security conference in Munich, he argued the UK needed a stronger national identity to prevent people turning to all kinds of extremism.

Yeah, go Dave. Building an ever strengthening national identity seems like the ideal formula for combatting disenfranchisement,alienation and inevitable reaction to it.

Idiot.

Idiot.

While I don’t disagree, I’m flabbergasted at the decision to make this speech. To whom is he pandering? It wasn’t anything to do with the group of right wing nutter parties that the EuroTories have grouped up with in Brussels is it?

Actually, on checking, no, I don’t think it is.

So, yeah, idiot!

of course Trevor cannot be racist, because he’s brown, innit – while Cameron must be racist, cos he’s an evil Tory…

That’s one of the stupidest things you’ve said on here.

And that’s really saying something… 🙄

I’m more concerned with who has their hand up Cameron’s arse, making his mouth work, than the words that come out of it.

Deadlydarcy asked

To whom is he pandering?

😕

Our survey showed 9 out of 10 Britons demand tougher border controls

but cameron never mentioned border controls in his speach?

😕

but cameron never mentioned border controls in his speach?

True, but it’s the mood of the country, unfortunately.

On the one hand, those on the hard right ignore this distinction between Islam and Islamist extremism and just say:
Islam and the West are in irreconcilable. This is a clash of civilisations.
So it follows: we should cut ourselves off from this religion – whether that’s through the forced repatriation favoured by some fascists or the banning of new mosques as suggested in some parts of Europe.
These people fuel Islamaphobia. And I completely reject their argument……
Under the doctrine of state multiculturalism, we have encouraged different cultures to live separate lives, apart from each other and the mainstream.
We have failed to provide a vision of society to which they feel they want to belong.
We have even tolerated these segregated communities behaving in ways that run counter to our values.
So when a white person holds objectionable views – racism, for example – we rightly condemn them.
But when equally unacceptable views or practices have come from someone who isn’t white, we’ve been too cautious, frankly even fearful, to stand up to them.
The failure of some to confront the horrors of forced marriage the practice where some young girls are bullied and sometimes taken abroad to marry someone they don’t want to is a case in point.
This hands-off tolerance has only served to reinforce the sense that not enough is shared.

…..
Frankly, we need a lot less of the passive tolerance of recent years and much more active, muscular liberalism.
A passively tolerant society says to its citizens: as long as you obey the law, we will leave you alone.
It stands neutral between different values. A genuinely liberal country does much more.
It believes in certain values and actively promotes them.
Freedom of speech. Freedom of worship. Democracy. The rule of law. Equal rights regardless of race, sex or sexuality.
It says to its citizens: this is what defines us as a society.
To belong here is to believe in these things.
Each of us in our own countries must be unambiguous and hard-nosed about this defence of our liberty.
There are practical things we can do as well.
That includes making sure immigrants speak the language of their new home.
And ensuring that people are educated in elements of a common culture and curriculum.
Full speech text here – though I am sure all commentairs heard /read the sppech before forming an opinion as it is the STW way
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/02/terrorism-islam-ideology

Think he is saying we have seperate communities in this country for some Muslims which is clearly true. Where I work we have effectively Muslim and non Muslim schools.
Secondly he is saying we should challenge some aspect of their system and encourage [force?] some to live more to our ways as in how the country generally live.

Not that radical though there will be little agreement about what these shared values should be.

I was listening to it this evening on R4. Sadiq Kahn is going to give himself an aneurysm if he keeps on like that…

Not that radical though there will be little agreement about what these shared values should be.

Nor what mechanism to use to “encourage [force?]” someone.

Think he is saying we have seperate communities in this country for some Muslims which is clearly true.

The exact same can be said for Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist etc communities. Xept they aren’t ‘sexy’ enough for the media to get all excited about.

Where I work we have effectively Muslim and non Muslim schools.

Are you talking about actual ‘faith’ schools, or just standard ones with a large number of pupils from Muslim families? Cos that’s like, a little bit different.

There are far, far more ‘Christian’ schools in this country than Muslims ones. Yet no-one seems to bother too much about them.

And this Jewish school actually discriminated on racial grounds.

Interesting that people don’t seem to get as worked up over such things though, eh?

FWIW I don’t think religion has a place in the education of children in what should be a fair and egalitarian, non-discriminatory environment. So I’d strip all ‘faith’ schools of such status, and ban such religious indoctrination in schools, but then I’m a tyrant. 🙂

True, but it’s the mood of the country, unfortunately.

i disagree

its a misleading headline in a right leaning paper

the survey asked if we should have better border controls and went on to say the majority think most migrants are hard-working and fill jobs that might otherwise not be done.

even to say people demand is rubbish no one demanded it they just answered a question a survey

It’s a bit of an appeal to middle England in response to polling that suggests that Brits are concerned about immigration because so many of his other policies have not been popular (libraries, NHS, forests, jobs, bankers). I think the Big Society will be built around opposing these policies.

Deadlydarcy asked

To whom is he pandering?

Our survey showed 9 out of 10 Britons demand tougher border controls

Because all muslims in the UK come from outside of the UK don’t they ? 🙄

Are you suggesting that Cameron is only pandering to people too mentally frail to work out the actualities of the situation ?

i did not mean they were Islamic schools I mean the two communities go to different schools, live in different areas, dont really socialise together fr play 5 a side/cricket together through choice. Yes other communities are seperated but they tend to not be producing home grown terrorsits.
There is an issue of integration that fuels the BNP and leads to many people feeling the need to join the EDL . A recent survey showed that we[UK population] were more worried about immigration than the Dutch or the Germans who have higher levels than we do.
We do need to address the issue on both sides.
I walk home via an area where I rarely see a white face and all the shops are Asian – jewellery, clothes, food etc. Personally I dont care and it does not worry/bother me in the slightest. I suspect a plea to liberal tolerance may not work to well with either the EDL or Islamicic extremisits ,zionist ones or any extremist actually.
Not sure about trying to impose cultural values either as I am not sure that the A & A approach to women [western tolernace???]is actually any more respectful than than Jihab approach. Seems little common ground between the two given each side thinks their way respects women more and I think neither does it very well.

What is a country defined as these days? In the past it was defined by your king, nationalism and and a common nation state such as English in England only came later. You could also have an empire which I suppose is a bit like multiculturalism but that kind of relies on a strong leader as the different groups all want to go in different ways.

These days the biggest outlet of nationalism is sport, great as it stops us killing each other but then do the edl really know what or how to define Englishness? The strange thing about these kind of groups is that they define themselves by what they are not not what they are except footy and waving an England flag around

I am all for the kind of things Dave is talking about and I do believe that many of these should be rammed downn everybody’s throats. Equality of the sexes, division of the state and religion, religion is a private matter, the rule of law and freedom from corruption. The American right is a funny thing in these matters, the founding fathers where in the whole apathetic about religion and said that religion and the state should be separate. The bit about god in the oath of allegiance was actually added latter.

It would be nice to think Dave did really believe in those things but I get the feeling he believes more strongly in the free market a personal choice which kind of got us into this problem to start with.

Yes other communities are seperated but they tend to not be producing home grown terrorsits.

So, where do you think the anger and hatred within groups of disaffected young men comes from?

Right, so we’ve got gangs of (mainly) White football hooligans glassing each other in pubs in town centres of a Saturday night, gangs of (mainly) young Black men involved in knife and gun crime, etc. Far too many needless deaths as a result of tensions within both groups.

But

Do young White and Black men feel as alienated, demonised and under suspicion as young Asian/Muslim men, in the UK? The progressive and well-orchestrated demonisation and systematic discrediting of Islam, which has been prevalent in Western Society for the last two decades, has created a climate of fear, mistrust and hate. Is it any wonder then, why some angry, frustrated misguided young fools resort to such extreme measures to prove themselves as ‘men’? Why is it that violence is far more prevalent within poorer communities?

20 years ago, Muslims were happily getting along in the UK, and no-one but a few Nazis were at all fussed about them.

So, tell me what’s suddenly changed? Did Muslims, as a collective faith, suddenly decide to wage war on the West?

Or did something else happen, to trigger things off?

The is an interesting book about what happened to Islam, I for one can remember being a bit shocked and thinking it was terribly un-English when I was young and they started burning the salman rushdie book, in Europe religion was a personal matter, please ignore NI it is a bit of an anomaly, so these people in tv getting very aggressive was not what our culture was used to. Our religion was slowly dying and being ridiculed in the media and nobody cared, think life of Brian. Anyway our perception of Islam has also been shaped by the active few on the Muslim side like the Muslim parliament which reflects a very small section of society but is organised so the media and politicians use than as the authentic voice.

torygraph review
leftyain

Elfinsafety the progressive and well-orchestrated demonisation and systematic discrediting of Islam, which has been prevalent in Western Society for the last two decades, has created a climate of fear, mistrust and hate. Is it any wonder then, why some angry, frustrated misguided young fools resort to such extreme measures to prove themselves as ‘men’?

so you agree with there actions then

Elfinsafety – Member
So, where do you think the anger and hatred within groups of disaffected young men comes from?

Ulster?

Its kind of funny how a lot of friends from the mainland always ask me ‘How come your lot don’t get on with one another?’……….

20 years ago, Muslims were happily getting along in the UK, and no-one but a few Nazis were at all fussed about them.

We had the Ruskies to worry about as bogeymen then though, so Muslims were safe.

Western society is predominantly Christian like it or not ever since the Roman left.

where do you think the anger and hatred within groups of disaffected young men comes from?

some of it comes from a perverted version of their religion and the fundamental beleifs that define them. It does not come from a lack of being a muslim – though clearly they are a misguided version of it.
.

So, tell me what’s suddenly changed? Did Muslims, as a collective faith, suddenly decide to wage war on the West?

ther is a bit of history between the two stretching back thousands of years iirc my history. Was the shah a nice way to treat Islam int eh 70s,?
Everyone – but the racist – know it is a very small part of the community – 0,00001 % probably lower but it is still there.

Does the west demonise Islam? Yes
Do aspects of islamic countries demonise the west ? Yes – see Iran for example
Is to wrong and unhelpful on both sides? YES

Or did something else happen, to trigger things off?

It seems like you think they have a point and that they were provoked into this ?Perhaps they even have some validity to attack the powers and structures that make the decisions. Blowing up buses,whatever the provocation or reasons,seens excessive.
There is an issue with people not living side by side in harmony and what is wrong with trying to address this? We can discuss the method but the motive is fine with me.

As you knwo I am not against direct action and think the ANC were justified in theri use of violence but I do not see these people as freedom fighters in any way. They can freely practice their religion here for example so are no one is actually waging war on their faith/religion though western foreign policy is ,clearly, of dubious morality. I am not sure Iran or Saudi Arabia’s is actually much better tbh they just have far less power to weild.

The is an interesting book about what happened to Islam, I for one can remember being a bit shocked and thinking it was terribly un-English when I was young and they started burning the salman rushdie book, in Europe religion was a personal matter

Same here. That is a core of being British – not being openly religious.

Forget everything else, just teach that.

Our religion was slowly dying and being ridiculed in the media and nobody cared, think life of Brian.

See, it’s comments like that the cause division and distrust. Who’s religion exactly is ‘ Our religion‘ and it must follow that where there’s an ‘us’ there must be a them.

If multiculturalism has failed, it’s because of the failure of people to recognise that Britain is a ‘ we’ not a them and us.

trailmonkey – Member

“Our religion was slowly dying and being ridiculed in the media and nobody cared, think life of Brian.”

See, it’s comments like that the cause division and distrust. Who’s religion exactly is ‘ Our religion’ and it must follow that where there’s an ‘us’ there must be a them.

If multiculturalism has failed, it’s because of the failure of people to recognise that Britain is a ‘ we’ not a them and us.

Your “religion” or the society you live in is dominated by Christianity. There is “them” and “us” since time begins and will be forever because we human maggots think that way.

Unfortunately, you might think that you are a “we” but others see that as opportunity to dominate. Yeah right … “we” so long as the “we” is defined by me.

🙄

I agree but cultural clashes is a part of human culture presumably since tribal times.
Take female dress for example. Whilst I have no real probelm with people covering up or dressing like Jordan it is , after all , their choice. There does seem little common ground between a belief in dressing modestly and Jordan – plenty of others example exits every weekend on the streets of Britain.
Which cultural belief trumps which when we have a debate?

So describe ‘us’ except we all live in the same place or as I said before do we live in an empire where we all look after ourselves as long as we don’t rock the boat or question those in power?

Your “religion” or the society you live in is dominated by Christianity. There is “them” and “us” since time begins and will be forever because we human maggots think that way.

But I have no religion, I was born and raised in England and I’m white anglo/irish, so where does that put me in the us/them/ours/theirs scheme of things.

If we have any pretensions to be a multicultural society then there is only room for we.

Trailmonkey I bet a lot of your morals etc have their origin in the enlightenment. Not everybody would believe in those key beliefs. Sorry if I am wrong.

you are wrong because you mistakenly thought that i have any morals at all.

😉