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Cameron's science advisers call for expansion of GM crop
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mogrimFull Member
Molgrips
Because it can’t its modified for the reason its been modified ! have found nothing that says it adapts.
And if it does then that could be catastrophic as you have no control over it ?
But have to say this would be some thing that Shackleton could possibly confirmNot Molgrips!
Of course it can adapt, it’s a living plant, and just like any other living plant it can evolve. In fact, that’s one of the major objections to GM plants, the fact that this adaption is unpredictable. Which is why it needs testing…
grantwayFree MemberNot Molgrips!
Of course it can adapt, it’s a living plant, and just like any other living plant it can evolve. In fact, that’s one of the major objections to GM plants, the fact that this adaption is unpredictable. Which is why it needs testing…
Really then you have no control
ShackletonFree MemberAny organism will adapt to its environment through evolution. Evolution requires that the change could has a selective advantage. In the case of farmed plants we have removed plants from this situation so it is highly unlikely that the GM plant would evolve into some super planet trasher, especially without us noticing. Other things adapting to the GM plant are a different matter, pathogen resistance can be overcome as resistant pathogens will have a selective advantage. But this is also true for conventionally bred resistances.
Plant resistance to pathogens largely relies on a few families of resistance genes that act as antennas for specific pathogen “signatures”. When they detect a pathogen signature they initiate the defence responses required. Given the number of pathogens you can imagine that the repertoire of these resistance genes is quite big. In wild species there are many variants of these genes and the genetic diversity in each population provide for selection, diversification, maintenance and transfer of them, allowing for adaptation to pathogens (arms race idea). During domestication we have inadvertently stopped this flow and fixed a small number of the resitance genes available in the wild in our crop populations. This prevents conventional breeding from being able to adapt to emerging pathogens in the same way that wild populations do as they can’t access the resistance genes because they aren’t present in the breeding population.
In many GM strategies to make pathogen resistant plants the aim is to identify resistance genes from wild populations and move them into cultivated varieties. So, say, moving a wild species potato gene into a domesticated potato without disrupting all of the other benefits breeding has provided such as yield, growth rates, etc. over the wild species. In essence you could say that GM of this type is trying to reverse the negative effects of past selective breeding to increase the adaptive variation available to stop pathogens.
On top of this many strategies are also trying to stack resistances up (introduce multiple pathways of recognising a pathogen) to prevent pathogens overcoming the resistances (similar to multiple complementary antibiotics courses).
I find it unlikely that a superpest would emerge as a result, certainly no more than is observed already with pesticide spraying use. In fact, GM may reduce the risk as you wouldn’t risk spraying off-target organisms which could develop resitance and may become a peat. With GM you would only be targeting the specific organism trying to attack the plant, everything else would be left alone. You could also have two or more variants with resistance to the same pathogen and alternate their use. this would alter the direction of the selective pressure and further reduce the chance of resistance emerging. This is of course theoretically possible with conventional breeding but because of the reasons outlined above and the time it takes it has never been achieved to my knowledge.
Right, dinner break over, back to work.
grantwayFree MemberCould GM plant pollenate with the other, or would one reject the other?
Nice info Shackleton
ShackletonFree MemberIf the pollination could happen naturally then I see no reason why a GM variant wouldn’t also be able to. I also see no reason why being GM would suddenly expand the range of plants it was able to pollinate.
As far as I am aware most (all?) of our major crop plants don’t have wild relatives in this country that are sufficiently closely related to be cross-pollinated. This isn’t the case, say, in mexico where GM maize and wild maize (teosinte) have been shown to cross pollinate.
A bigger risk is the escape of plants into the wild. Luckily most crop varieties would be outcompeted regardless of GM status as they rely so heavily on human intervention to survive.
anagallis_arvensisFull MemberEvolution requires that the change could has a selective advantage
Point of order…this is wrong. Natural selection requires a selective advantage, evolution can happen thru other random events..it is immaterial to your point though.
ninfanFree MemberOf course it can adapt, it’s a living plant, and just like any other living plant it can evolve.
Even if its sterile?
mogrimFull MemberEven if its sterile?
Well, no – but then you’re talking about terminator crops, which have a whole other set of issues, and I don’t think they’re the solution to the problem of feeding the world’s population.
ShackletonFree MemberEvolution requires that the change could has a selective advantage
Point of order…this is wrong. Natural selection requires a selective advantage, evolution can happen thru other random events..it is immaterial to your point though
Fair point. My bad.
JunkyardFree Memberpathogen resistance can be overcome as resistant pathogens will have a selective advantage.
you mean nature will react
to prevent pathogens overcoming the resistances (similar to multiple complementary antibiotics courses).
we are getting resistance to antibiotics now though.
I find it unlikely that a superpest would emerge as a result, certainly no more than is observed already with pesticide spraying use
i agree it is unlikely but given the risks i would prefer not to.
As i said originally we agree on the science we just make a different risk assesment
grantwayFree MemberSorry Shacklton I should have been more specific.
What I should have asked was, Can the GM crop plant Pollenate with the same crop plant
that has not been modified. If so is it ok to eat ?For what I remember about 2 to 3 years back in this Country some GM crop did get released
by mistake (allegedly) Any idea the effects of that ?Tom_W1987Free Memberi agree it is unlikely but given the risks i would prefer not to.
Resistance is totally different to a pathogens potency. If a disease becomes resistant to a drug, virulence and transmissibility does not necessarily change…. usually what happens is that it ends up causing the same issues that it did before in a population at most, the same size as the percentage of individuals that were effected before new treatments were made available.
You wouldn’t see all the worlds potatoes decimated if the pathogen evolved to attack GM potatoes, it would simply increase the target population back to what it was before. Of course, you can talk about genetic homogeneity – but as has been discussed, traditional farming methods have decimated genetic variability anyway. GM would actually be a quicker way of introducing genetic variability than traditional methods.
You scare mongering would have had vaccines banned. Which have quite clearly had a beneficial effect on the world and has led to the almost total eradication of certain diseases, with no apocalyptic mutations.
Any idea the effects of that ?
crispycrossFree MemberPoint of info for earlier posters about global population growth: The UN predicts it’ll grow from the current 7.2 billion to 9 billion or so by 2050. This is largely as a result of people living longer, even though birth rates in some developing countries will fall to 2 per woman as living standards rise. (But the rate in many is still quite high.) The population will then stabilise. Probably.
If you want the population to fall, you need to kill a very large number of people through natural catastrophes, mass disease outbreaks and the like, or employ forced sterilisation or population restrictions (and we saw how well that worked in China, right?)http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=45165#.U5YbqSBwaP8
ShackletonFree MemberCan the GM crop plant Pollenate with the same crop plant that has not been modified. If so is it ok to eat ?
Yes it could providing they were sufficiently similar. I don’t see why the resulting offspring would be any more or less dangerous than either parent or the result of a natural cross.
For what I remember about 2 to 3 years back in this Country some GM crop did get released
by mistake (allegedly) Any idea the effects of that ?No idea I’m afraid as I don’t remember seeing anything about an accidental release. Any pointers?
Junkyard – I still don’t fully understand what your “nature will react” thing is. Nature will always respond to anything and everything it is confronted with. It has been responding to all of our selective breeding, changes in climate, etc. since time immemorial. Just because something is GM doesn’t mean that nature will react differently. In many of the examples I have given I think the reaction would actually be less damaging, or even beneficial, to ecosystems and the environment than current farming methods as there would be less to react to.
we are getting resistance to antibiotics now though.
Yes, which is why combination courses and alternating treatments are now being used to try and reduce the effect. And again, all of those arguments about overcoming resistance also apply to conventionally bred resistances in crops, GM would just allow a faster and more diverse response to current and emerging pathogens, equivalent to having more varied and potent antibiotics.
ernie_lynchFree MemberIf you want the population to fall, you need to kill a very large number of people through natural catastrophes, mass disease outbreaks and the like
Why ? As you yourself have pointed out birth rates can fall, quote : “even though birth rates in some developing countries will fall to 2 per woman as living standards rise”. This will surely have an affect on the world’s population level ?
And I don’t know why you are are so dismissive of China’s attempts to reduce population growth (which I assume you meant by “and we saw how well that worked in China, right?”) China’s population growth rate has pretty much fallen for over 40 years. It currently stands at 0.5%.
NorthwindFull Memberninfan – Member
Even if its sterile?
Clearly you haven’t been keeping up with the hard science
crispycrossFree MemberErnie_lynch, the UN report predicts the population to continue to rise, tending to stabilise around 9 bn (as fertility falls to around 2) but not falling at any point. Falling birth rates do not automatically imply a falling population – they need to fall below 2 for that to happen.
China’s one child policy has led to sex-selective abortions, millions of ‘surplus’ single men and an increasing proportion of the elderly, never mind coming in for criticism on human rights grounds. Ok, it has contributed to reducing population growth to some extent, but at quite a cost. Can you imagine enacting such a policy in the West?molgripsFree MemberFalling birth rates do not automatically imply a falling population – they need to fall below 2 for that to happen.
Afaik it’s about 2.3% , as there’s attrition i.e. a proportion of the kids born to a woman will die before child-bearing age, be sterile or choose not to have kids.
China’s one child policy has led to sex-selective abortions, millions of ‘surplus’ single men
Afaik both those things are down to a desire for boy kids which I don’t *think* we have in this country. But that’s a digression for this thread.
NorthwindFull Membercrispycross – Member
Can you imagine enacting such a policy in the West?
No need currently- in the EU and US we’re actually below the replacement rate now. Most effective way to reduce population generally seems to be to increase wealth, health, and reduce premature mortality.
(replacement rate varies from country to country due to mortality figures, but I just did some guilty wiki-ing and apparently the world replacement rate is 2.33 and the current fertility rate is 2.36 so actually getting pretty close to stable. Population growth figures lag, obviously.)
ernie_lynchFree MemberI’m sorry crispycross but I don’t quite understand the point you’re making. Someone asked : At the current rate of global population growth, how long will it be before it’s impossible to feed the world without resorting to some sort of genetic modification?
I responded with : Presumably “at the current rate of global population growth” it will eventually be impossible to feed the world even if we resort to some sort of genetic modification ?
GM is obviously not any sort of long term answer (to that particular question). Not maintaining “the current rate of global population growth” is.
Ok, it has contributed to reducing population growth to some extent, but at quite a cost.
I’m sorry I thought you were suggesting that it hadn’t succeeded.
crispycrossFree MemberNot maintaining “the current rate of global population growth” is.
I think we’re in agreement here. The current rate of population growth is not likely to be maintained. It seems it’ll likely level out, without the need, hopefully, for more widespread draconian measures enacted by authoritarian regimes, or mass starvation or the like.
Going back to the other part of the point, I’m undecided about the role of GM crops. Used wisely, GM can play an important role in feeding a growing world population, alongside other agricultural improvements, better storage and distribution etc. We also need more equitable distribution of wealth and fairer exploitation of natural resources. I’m afraid that might be very hard to achieve, harder than technological fixes.ernie_lynchFree MemberThe current rate of population growth is not likely to be maintained.
Well that’s good news ! 🙂
Tom_W1987Free MemberErnie_lynch, the UN report predicts the population to continue to rise, tending to stabilise around 9 bn (as fertility falls to around 2) but not falling at any point. Falling birth rates do not automatically imply a falling population – they need to fall below 2 for that to happen
NASA have the population declining from 2050 – some of the lower range NASA projections have humanity becoming extinct due to crashing birth rates.
Improving the standard of living and access to healthcare/education in the developing world would see to it that we hit a lower peak population quicker and would thus enter population decline more quickly.
If we coupled this with legislation that encouraged the demand of energy and carbon efficient technology, then we would be half way to sorting out our mess without ever having to resort to misanthropic unworkable malthusian policies that attempt to rapidly decrease the worlds population.
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