Cadence…

What's a good/efficient 'endurance' type cadence? Currently I find I'm comfortable spinning away at around 80rpm or so, any higher and I feel like changing gears, but I'm not sure if I should be forcing my legs to get used to a higher rate (again, it's a question tinged with a certain 24hr event in mind 🙄 ).

I've always been more of a masher than a spinner, relying on power and grunt instead of efficiency, but I suspect that may be a poor approach for riding 24hrs!?

high = aerobic = > HR

low = anaerobic = > lactic

so somewhere between the two 😛

70-90rpm is fine but you have to keep pushing bigger gears slower till you can get that to 80rpm but higher ratio and that takes time and hard work.

Just train and race at the level you don't cross VO2 max threshold.

i used to be a grunter – would often do the SXC races entirely in the big ring (to good effect i may add) but while i was on tour and partially after it i learnt to spin at 90-100 rpm – what a difference that makes. It allows for smooth power delivery for technical climbs where gruntin results in wheelspin

Exertion & lactic acid production is unrelated to cadence (just trying to correct qwerty but his post doesn't really make sense).

I'm seem to pedal the same on my road bike as I do on my mountain bike except when it comes to bitchass climbs when it obviously drops.

I think spinning a 42:16 on my SS commuter has helped massivley with maintaining a good cadence.

My computer says an average of 84rpm over the last 300 miles on my road bike, which is quite spinny really

Within limits, the more you spin, the more sustainable the pace will be over longer rides/events eg 24s – less muscle damage (which is what causes the stiffness/pain) and more efficent. You do need to train yourself to ride that way though as it'll feel quite breathy to start so it's not something to try on the day of a race.

70-90rpm is fine but you have to keep pushing bigger gears slower till you can get that to 80rpm but higher ratio and that takes time and hard work.

I'm sure it's just me, but I can't make sense of that sentence? 😳 Can you explain again please?

Gym bikes are useful for this, especially if you do spin-ups pyramids which will help where you go 70-80-90-100-110-120-110-100-90-80-70 for example

psychle – I think he's suggesting riding in too big a gear but then trying to learn to spin it as you get fitter so that you gradually get faster.

I don't really agree though. I'd suggest that you're better learning to spin a gear at 90rpm and throw in some strength work at lower cadences/higher gears to reflect the changes of pace you do on mtbs due to terrain/overtaking/etc.

around 80 will give you a steady ride on the flats but enough left to get up short shapr climbs as and when they appear. For whill never let it fall below 60, youre just slogging on the pedals then and wasting energy

I think it is time to get the SS roadie out again as I have slipped back into pushing a big gear at about 60 to 70 rpm and making my legs sore the following day.

I remember reading a well-argued article by Jonathan Vaughters that stated that the ideal cadence is very different for riders with different leg proportions.
Riders with relatively long femurs/ short tibias are more efficient at lower revs, while those with more even proportions are able to spin more effectively
(that would sit with what I know about animal biomechanics too- animals with proportionally long thighs tend to be high strength 'plodders' while those with long lower limb parts tend to be more fleet-footed )

There has been at least one study that hinted that during very high cadences of the type that's now fashionable, actually MORE oxygen is required than lower revs.
The main benefit of the high-revving/ low gear approach is ease of pace changes, rather than absolute efficiency

Probably right but again, absolute efficiency isn't what a 24 is about – it's about sustaining a high pace for a long time. Riding aerobically does a lot less damage to the muscles and as such is much more sustainable for long periods – so long as you keep eating and sleeping, in theory you could go on for very long periods – a bit like cycle touring really…

well i did a fairly varied mix of grunting and cadence work at strathpuffer 24 riding 32:18 and then after 4 laps moving to 32:21 – cadence of about 5 at one point ….

bout half and half grunty /spinny

but you're a super fit endurance riding demi-god right? (seem to recall you're a bit of a pro)? what about us mere mortals? 😆

Trail_rat, that wasn't having a go at you btw, sorry if it came across negative!

Cheers for the replies chaps, appreciated.

So, for a given pace (say 20km/hr) I'm better aiming to spin around 90rpm rather than 80rpm? Would you say?

i reckon it makes a difference if you ride flats or spd's too. try spinning at 80/90 on flatties and your feet will be all over the shop wont they?

Well, I'm the opposite of trail_rat, my system is ride according to your HR monitor.

I work on the principle that if I keep it below a certain level, I can go 24 hours no problem. If it goes over I get off the bike and walk until it drops to about 10 below the level.

Basically trail_rat's method wins you 24 hour races, mine helps you survive them 🙂

I thought that actually lower cadences are more efficient, like 40-50, but that it was a slow twitch fast twitch thing with slow twitch / high cadence muscle using an easier replenished source for fuel, so you can go for longer.

Or the other way round, maybe…

maybe it is an oxygen thing .. i had my lungs measured today – they are silly big ….

i like spinning these days !

an no im no where near pro – i am not consistent enough – thats matt page thats the pro !

I was told that fast spinning was better as it kept the blood pumping through the veins and thus reduced the work the heart had to do, i.e. the heart ends up beating at a high cadence as well, but similarly is doing little work.

If you look at any decent training plans they will all get you spinning at 90 rpm in a light gear at the start.
Then build you up, so you are still spinning at 90 rpm but have made the gears harder to allow for better climbing stamina.

I could never work it out so live 24hr events on eth principle that if my legs start to get lactic or strained that's bad and no matter how puffed my lungs will recover quickly.

as many theories as posters then?

If there is a definitive theory I would like to know 'cos I've entered Keilder and I'm feeling somewhat nervous.

if my legs start to get lactic or strained that's bad and no matter how puffed my lungs will recover quickly.

At a really basic level, that's pretty spot on actually.

depends on your physiology then as much as "the definitive"

i get worse lactic grunting than i do spinning. But im just a giant lung rather than legs – really gotta grow some legs ! guys i ride with cant spin for more than a 10 mins and look at me like ive got three heads for still doing 100rpm 3 or 4 hours into a ride

guys i ride with cant spin for more than a 10 mins

I'm a natural big gear pusher being blessed with freakishly strong legs. I used to not be able to spin. I taught myself to do it (which slowed me down for a while) and it's paid dividends for longer rides.

You can't just try spinning and expect it to feel comfortable if it's not what you're used to. Obviously some people will naturally find it easier but anyone can learn to ride a good cadence of 85-95.

agreed clubber

took me 8 months …. 3.5 months of that was riding all day every day with a heavy load. I like to think ive got it now !

I'm a spinner; including doing longish rides on the road on 32:16 SS MTB – on the flat I can spin along at 20kmph.

When people mention lactic acid are they suggesting that you should drink less milk (there is lactic acid in milk). Or are they trying to make some point about how the body works?
http://www.drmirkin.com/fitness/9258.html
"The old theory was that lactic acid makes the muscles more acidic which causes them to hurt and burn and interferes with their ability to contract, so you feel tired. Now researchers have shown that muscles contact more efficiently when lactic acid accumulates in them. Electric currents cause muscles to contract. This electricity is generated by cell membranes causing potassium to move inside cells and chloride ions to stay outside. With vigorous exercise, potassium ions accumulate outside cells. As large amounts of potassium ions accumulate outside cells, electricity is not generated and the cells cannot contract. Another ion called chloride accumulates outside cells and prevents potassium from getting back inside cells. Lactic acid removes the chloride, so it is easier for potassium to get back inside cells. Therefore lactic acid increases the ratio of potassium inside cells to the amount outside, and this helps the muscle contract with more efficiency."

Just how big are these lungs of yours?
Some years ago I was measured and they were 102% of the national average.
Never going pro then I guess! 😉

quite big …

the biggest lungs ever recorded were some rower in england at 11.6litres ….. lets say im not a million miles away – (bearing in mind im quite tall)

national average is about 6litres – most tour riders are between 8-10litres but alot of them have abnormal hearts – most notable big mig ! – chap i ride with has an enlarged heart – by **** he can climb !

ok macavity – theory may be correct but go work to the burn then try and finish a 24 … i live for the burn in 10 and 25 mile time trials but there is NO WAY id want to even go near that point in a 24 !

My preferred cadence is about 100rpm I think.
I don't think I can really ride below about 80rpm (if putting any effort in) – just can't push that hard on the pedals for very long.

Must be something to do with lanky long legs with no power.

the biggest lungs ever recorded were some rower in england at 11.6litres

That'd be Peter Reed, Olympic gold medalist…

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/British-Rower-Smashes-Military-Fitness-Records-Peter-Reeds-Lungs-Among-Worlds-Largest/Article/200812115171699

aye he obviously has the legs to go with his lungs !

does tie in with my theory that no matter how sore my legs are and how hard i go – i can almost always hold a conversation – great way to **** with minds at races 😉

The times when people talk about lactic acid is when they are talking about sore legs. Legs are sore because legs are sore regardless of lactic acid. The A in DNA is for Acid.

As an ex-rugby player (forward) with thights the size of many peoples torsos I find spinning (ie moving that mass to and fro quickly) very tiring – but the single speed is helping me learn. It's also helping me learn that you can (on a good surface at least) climb at a walking cadence.

I'm still rubbish though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEuxXl9QGWo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2ZrbnR-0dI&feature=related

i reckon it makes a difference if you ride flats or spd's too. try spinning at 80/90 on flatties and your feet will be all over the shop wont they?

I ride flats and can spin like a loon.