Business owners (including agricultural) in their 50s around where I’m from appear to feel entitled to a supply of hard-grafting young-ish people, who already have the know-how/skills to do the job, who will come in on an as-needed basis (even within the season) on short notice while being totally available and reliable, for minimum wage. They wouldn’t want their own kids doing that though. The ideal candidate sounds like a dedicated skilled-ish person with low self-worth and no ambition but a strong sense of loyalty, who lives with parents and has no regular expenses, just working for some pocket money.

That sounds like the stories I hear about the tattie howkin’ back in the day. Turn up in the morning, you, you, you, you etc. rest bugger off. Work your arse off and get a pittance in return.

Don’t get me wrong, I’ve done the seasonal thing (albeit not as hard graft) as a student and got more than just the money out of it, it just depends what you’re doing and where I guess.

totally available and reliable, for minimum wage

Available (seasonally) and reliable (can do the job and don’t head home after the first week)… pretty obvious requirements.

I was brought up in the Fens in the 80s

Please tell me you had at least one non-functional car in the front garden a Nissen Hut, and a CB Radio mast?

Strangely enough, not me (wasn’t born there) but my cousins who were…..🤔

Can you hear banjos?

This part of the thread is skirting around the basic point.

Your average Brexiteer wants to benefit from the standard of living derived from cheap(er) foreign labour whilst not being willing to do those jobs themselves or respect the rights of the people doing them. Essentially they regard themselves as exceptional and expect the rest of the world to wait on them hand and foot.

A mate of mine owned a very successful ham processing business. His workforce was largely Eastern European (Polish and Hungarian), pretty happy and lively on the shop floor. They had also organised their own bus from Birmingham to work there (30 miles away). My mate is a fairly ‘patriotic’ type and every couple of years he would have a pang of guilt about not employing many local folk and recruit some. Almost invariably they turned up late for a few days, then went on the sick, then never reappeared. The deputy manager was a very local bloke who also said “there’s no point employing anyone from round here, they all expect money for nothing”.

Employers won’t pay more for British workers. So we’ll end up with deteriorating customer service, standards, quality, productivity etc with rising costs.

If businesses are forced to pay more (on average) for less (on average) They will shy away from investing in plant and machinery. So the erosion of quality will happen via a different means.

If you employ 100 people and you have to raise the hourly rate by £5…

Thats about a million quid per annum (from net unless you hile prices) and probably breaks that business.

I am not defending minimum wage but there are a lot of business models built on minimum wage.

It’s not really about minimum wage. It is about ‘unit’ of work done per £.

If your business becomes 10-20% less efficient overnight you are likely to raise prices, cut back on capex or, perhaps, sell up and cash out.

Yep and UK productivity is shocking

Its awful funny how countries with much higher wages and much lower levels of inequality still have hospitality industries.

Whats so special about the UK that we cannot pay people in hospitality properly?

High inflation, low productivity, labour shortage, overheated housing market….

Mmmm wonder what this will lead to..

We do not have high inflation. We do not have a labour shortage. Housing is cheap here compared to the countries I was thinking of and WTF does that have to do with our hospitality industry not being able to pay people properly

the answer of course is we are too used to having everything cheap built on the back of cheap labour.

We do not have a labour shortage.

Depending on sector. Depending on region. Again, round pegs into square holes. You absolutely can have sectors and regions facing major shortages while others can recruit readily.

It is not about ‘cheap’ labour, it is about having the right workers available, willing and able.

who will come in on an as-needed basis (even within the season) on short notice while being totally available and reliable, for minimum wage

Available (seasonally) and reliable (can do the job and don’t head home after the first week)… pretty obvious requirements.

I could have been clearer – I meant can be relied on to be available to come in at short notice on an irregular basis, a la zero hours type thing which makes it difficult to plan around secondary jobs and other life commitments.

oldmanmtb2
Free Member

Yep and UK productivity is shocking

And we’re straight away back to a couple of days ago when we talked about what measured productivity really means. Because it doesn’t measure productivity.

Lots of happy remainers tonight! (joke btw, sorry I couldn’t help it 😀 )

Had some very excited messages from Italians in Britain (although not strictly remainers, because, you know, denied a vote in that matter).

Its awful funny how countries with much higher wages and much lower levels of inequality still have hospitality industries.

As usual, it’s more complicated than that. Firstly a lot of countries do what we did, rely on cheap imported labour. Secondly, countries adapt to their situations, and it’s significant changes that cause trouble. If our economy had gradually shifted over a few decades it would have been fine.

And yes, we’re used to cheap stuff. But that’s not just all about gorging ourselves on luxury items. My parents for example had to spend several months’ wages on a washing machine when they were young. They’re a lot cheaper than that now, in fact people are often giving old working ones away. Imagine how much harder life would be for a single working parent if washing machines, phones, internet access were that expensive still? And food – UK has cheap food relative to other countries and yet far too many people still can’t afford it.

The answer of course isn’t cheap exploited labour before you accuse me of endorsing Toryism. It’s supporting the poor. That has to happen in a whole variety of ways, not just sticking up minimum wage or getting rid of the cheap labour.

Brexit was about a last chance smash and grab at the last of the postwar consensus before it is diluted away by global economic pressures. The Brexit voting working class have dug their own graves, but because the whole thing was wrapped in a union jack they’ll still headbutt you for suggesting they made a balls up.

Or as I said, when Johnson got his majority in 2019, “**** ’em” – with ‘them’ being the poor/weak/unfortunate/disabled etc who voted Tory.

Employers won’t pay more for British workers. So we’ll end up with deteriorating customer service, standards, quality, productivity etc with rising costs.

So it’s ok to exploit foreign workers to maintain cheap products and services? If your view is typical of many remainers (and I don’t think it is) then it’s a pretty damning argument. Maybe the people who voted for brexit aren’t quite as stupid as you always say they are.

I’d like to point out that I am in favour of immigration but I am NOT in favour of anyone being exploited, immigrant or otherwise.

Of course, exploitation is always going to happen to some extent without protections in place and if there is a surplus of labour. Now that we apparently have a labour shortage, it’s going to be interesting.

BUT

When EU citizens came here under FoM, they still had rights and protections to some extent. If people come here on working visas they are much more open to abuse. Example: I worked with Indian nationals on a project who were working in the UK on short term visas. They were employed by Indian companies, but were exempt from the meagre protections that domestic Indian workers had. So they had no sick pay for example. This is similar to how Mexian undocumented workers are treated in the US: “These are the terms – take them and don’t complain or I’ll tell the immigration services about you”

exploit foreign workers

I think you mean pay foreign workers.

When EU citizens came here under FoM, they still had rights and protections to some extent. If people come here on working visas they are much more open to abuse.

We’ve made this point many times, haven’t we? Where as before EU workers could come here to work in a seasonal job at first, and then move onto other UK work… or go to another EEA country with plans of coming back to make their lives here further down the line… now we’ll be tying them to their employers, and giving them time limited visas… this leaves them far more open to being “exploited”… “keep working for us, or leave the country”… we have removed the rights of workers. But they’re foreign workers… so who cares?

we have removed the rights of workers. But they’re foreign workers… so who cares?

It’s not a coincidence that rates of non-EU migration have started to go up. UK bilateral trade deals with both China and India and African nations like Nigeria are going to come with some surprises for the more “send them all back where they came from” leaning crowd.

Another ‘ignored’ issue that has made UK citizens less flexible in their ability to take seasonal/short-term work is the sheer amount of red-tape & delays in accessing benefits.

When I left school you could sign-on the next day. You could then take a a few weeks work, and then sign back on. And you’d get your monies (without waiting for weeks).

Every bit of legislation etc since has tightened the screw and made it harder to take seasonal/short-term if you are on benefits. Would YOU risk not having any money for 6 weeks, or risk not getting ‘back’ to where you are? Especially if you’d dependents.

Global Britain

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jul/13/tory-rebels-unsure-if-they-have-numbers-to-block-foreign-aid-cut

Should play well to the base

It’s okay, it’s only “temporary”… that nice honourable man you can trust said so.

The UK government already wants a new Brexit deal… before the one that they “got done” has even properly come into effect. What a surprise…

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57911148

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jul/21/why-uk-publishing-command-paper-northern-ireland-protocol

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/british-government-to-seek-several-changes-to-operation-of-northern-ireland-protocol-1.4626136

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-57901928

What they want is more excuses and a different deal… Then another different deal… And another gives them that.

If only someone could have warned them that the Northern Ireland Protocol was unworkable. Here’s a hint for their future endeavours – there is no workable arrangement which gives them what they want.

Why should any of our former European partners be willing to sit down for good faith negotiations with this collection of bellends and halfwits? There is no deal they are not prepared to renege on.

I think the one thing that we can be absolutely certain of is that the EU won’t be diluting the rules of the Customs Union and the Single Market for the benefit of the petulant toddler who’ve just thrown their dummy out of the pram.

We all knew these things were sacrosanct 5 years ago, and they’re even more so now, no matter what bullshit they try and spin.

This state of affairs was entirely predictable, in fact it was inevitable, from the moment that Theresa May caved in to the headbangers and announced that the UK would be leaving the Customs Union and the Single Market. There was no workable solution that would preserve the Good Friday Agreement from that point on. Not even David Davis and his ‘erm…. technology’

And Lord Frost can stamp his feet as much as he likes and threaten whatever he wants, The EU won’t be budging.

It seems that that reality has already registered with businesses that inhabit the real world as opposed to the deluded fantasy island of Boris and co. They know this whole thing is a total cluster-**** that is only going to get worse

M&S chair: Brexit protocol will leave gaps on shelves in Northern Ireland https://t.co/EnUDOblo4r

— The Guardian (@guardian) July 21, 2021

What power does Frost think he has here? thats the bit that gets me. He demands this that and the other but has simply no power to do anything. If the EU tell him to do one – as they have already what can he do?

 the EU won’t be diluting the rules of the Customs Union and the Single Market for the benefit of the petulant toddler

See, this is the thing that’s always confused me about the Brexiteers and their relationship with any negotiating partner (be that the Republic, or the EU) . They absolutely want their own ideologically pure “State of Nationhood” that (in their eyes) is totally sacrosanct and cannot be altered in any negotiations, and yet fully expect others to be pragmatic and flexible* in their dealings with Brexit Britain. They must understand that that’s unworkable…

* even more confusing as it’s the Tories, the gold standard of Pragmatic Flexibility (literally the only thing they have a reputation for)

If only someone could have warned them that the Northern Ireland Protocol was unworkable.

It’s not ‘unworkable’, it’s that one of the parties doesn’t want to work at implementing it (for ‘exports’ from GB to NI).

He demands this that and the other but has simply no power to do anything. If the EU tell him to do one – as they have already what can he do?

He’s just stood up in parliament and said that the UK will trigger article 16, break international law and unilaterally make changes to the NI protocol. To which the EU’s reply will be: “off you pop then sunshine. Let us know how you get on”

Because the moment they do that, the EU will, perfectly legitimately (its a legally binding international treaty, after all) slap all UK produce with huge tariffs. Every other nation will look at the Uk reneging on a trade deal and see that we can’t be trusted so will have no interest in doing another one with us

I’m sure that as the Brexiteers love a good war, to wave the flags and rally the troops and all that shit, that they’ll be more than happy to have a full on trade war with the EU, with the Daily Mail cheering them on.

It will cause untold damage to the UK economy, but since when did this lot ever give a shit about that?

it’s that one of the parties doesn’t want to work at implementing it

Or has only recently discovered that the measures it contains are politically toxic to Unionists, who clearly didn’t read the **** thing either before helping the Tories drive it through.

I’m sure it could have worked if it didn’t involve disrupting one of the most delicate political balances in the world.

Not sure why Lord Frost wants to change the NI Protocol. Here's Boris Johnson clearly saying it's a "brilliant deal" and that there will be no checks from GB to NI or NI to GB. pic.twitter.com/pQg4c7Gyv9

— David Schneider (@davidschneider) July 21, 2021

I say, I say, I say…

I got a Brexit calculator today. It doesn’t add up, but it is excellent at taking away and division.

Because the moment they do that, the EU will, perfectly legitimately (its a legally binding international treaty, after all) slap all UK produce with huge tariffs. Every other nation will look at the Uk reneging on a trade deal and see that we can’t be trusted so will have no interest in doing another one with us

I always wondered why they even signed up to it, I personally would have gone with:

1. No border between NI and UK as they’re the same country
2. No border between NI and RoI as that’s the GFA
3. No border between RoI and EU? Well that’s the EU’s problem to figure out, come back when you’ve sorted it boys.

Right from the outset – and I was pro-remain as it was clearly unworkable, why we’ve gone and made internal EU rules one of our problems now we’re no longer a member is a bit beyond me. Our leaders really are that stupid it would seem.

What power does Frost think he has here?

The usual two.

1. Bulletproof confidence in his own persuasive powers and charm.

2. The knowledge that a large proportion of ‘his’ domestic audience are xenophobic halfwits.

In the case of 1 above he is both mistaken and it would be irrelevant to the EU even if it were true.

In the case of 2 he is spot on, but the EU are well aware of it and don’t give a shit (or have to any more).

🇬🇧🍆💦🇬🇧

2. No border between NI and RoI as that’s the GFA
3. No border between RoI and EU? Well that’s the EU’s problem to figure out, come back when you’ve sorted it boys.Well that’s the EU’s problem to figure out, come back when you’ve sorted it boys.

And while they were at it, they should have demanded a lifetime supply of Audis and croissants for every UK citizen.

The ROI and EU would have no option but to introduce a hard border to NI in those circumstances. Sovereignty isn’t a one-way street – you want control over your borders, so does the EU and the ROI.

None of this was the ‘EU’s problem to sort out’. They weren’t the ones wanting to piss off into some Little Englander fantasy of sunlit uplands and freeports.

No border between RoI and EU? Well that’s the EU’s problem to figure out, come back when you’ve sorted it boys.

ONly its not because of the GFA. hence attempting to fudge. the only workable position once we are out of the CU is a border in the irish sea

I always wondered why they even signed up to it

Because the fly-tipped sofa had proclaimed he would ‘Get Brexit Done!’ by a specific date, so the EU knew they could offer him any old shite and he’d have no option but to sign it without even skim-reading it.

But like every other agreement he’s ever entered into, he had absolutely no intention of honouring it, so sign away, as it doesn’t really matter anyway