Brave Dave calls Mountain Rescue

This guy has appalling risk judgement

Jumping freight trains is not a good idea. I know someone who killed themselves doing that.

Thanks Boblo…..

Just checked the MLTE website. DAVE TEW and DAVID TEW are not listed as having any qualifications.

Who would have guessed?

Most of the Youtube comments are blowing smoke up his backside, but his reply to pretty much the only one that questions the decisions of the two parties that day reveals he’s not exactly using the incident as a learning experience.

The accident happened because someone slipped on some grass in just the right place to not be able to stop sliding. It’s what is known as a freak accident. It could happen to anyone.

Fairly balanced thread from UKC on it.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/hill_talk/brave_dave_-_mountain_rescue_call_out-721050

Simon_Semtex : I wouldn’t necessarily read too much into that. I just checked myself on there out of curiosity and I’m not listed either. I most definitely have Summer ML (and IML).

Putting aside his ML, lack of or right to be leading on the hill, I would say they did well. They contained the situation, stopped anything getting worse, gave location to MR. Fair play.

All MR want is an accurate location and people to stay put.

That UKC thread is fairly balanced. It also makes the point that occurred to me which was that they were bloody lucky it wasn’t a multiple casualty event given their desperate descent to search for their companion, when they all slipped over themselves. Wholly understandable given the adrenaline no doubt but one that confirms the general lack of experience involved.

Anybody else spot the axes being carried by the MRT bods?

Useful on steep grass as well as ice and snow.

Interesting that the overall tone on the UKC site is “There but for the grace of God” whereas here it’s much more damning

Interesting that the overall tone on the UKC site is “There but for the grace of God” whereas here it’s much more damning

Purity spirals and Dunning Kruger curves.

Everyone’s at pains on this thread to say how they wouldn’t dream of going up Snowdon in that weather.

Mention going up Snowdon any other thread and you’ll find people falling over themselves to explain how riding on Snowdon at any time other than mid winter and in the dark risks an extension of the voluntary ban. Even in Summer the average MTBer in riding kit and 5.10’s is a slight slippery miscalculation away from being “that bloke that called mountain rescue because he twisted his ankle on snowdon after setting off just before it got dark and is now stuck halfway down the telegraph in t-shirt, shorts and trainers”. But hey, we’re all awesome so it won’t happen right?

thisisnotaspoon
Subscriber

Everyone’s at pains on this thread to say how they wouldn’t dream of going up Snowdon in that weather.

Au contraire… I don’t have an issue going out in those sorts of conditions but I might be more aware of who I was with, their experience/attitude to risk and how we might escape if things turned to shit. It’s actually great fun doing ‘off limits’ stuff (if that doesn’t sound too gauche) but doing it with like minded/like experienced people.

Example. A couple of years ago I went to the Lakes with a couple of chums who have some hill walking experience in reasonable conditions and the ubiquitous winter skills course with no snow.

We’d planned something reasonably pointy but had to change partway through as conditions deteriorated. They were up for it but being on very exposed high ground (i.e. a ridge) in very high winds with limited experience is probably taking the piss. We may well have got away with it but I’d rather repeat the fisherman’s tale in the pub than explain what had happened to their partners.

I don’t think MTBers are any less aware of risks than other mountain users. I’m inclined to think they’re more aware as they see wiping out as one of the acceptable risks. Every member of our MTB club has wiped out at some point, many I ski with too, but walkers? I know plenty who’ve never had an accident, the worst I’ve had was losing a layer of skin on a thigh to ice burn before I got the axe to bite.

The guy slipped, I’m not going to criticise the decisions that led to that, it wasn’t the best place to be in those conditions but it wasn’t complete madness either. I’d have probably made the same decision to descend there.

What was disappointing was how the other three reacted. I have been in a similar situation. I was solo ski mountaineering when one of a couple of guys I’d met on a summit did something similar on the way down. Rather than skiing faster to get to him I slowed right down, seconds don’t matter. His mate did too, we both picked our way down with the utmost care.

My views on how they looked after the victim are the second post of this thread. They didn’t give him extra clothing, protection and body heat they could have done.

Everyone’s at pains on this thread to say how they wouldn’t dream of going up Snowdon in that weather.

Are they? A couple maybe. The decision to bail down that particular slope rather than press on was questionable unless, of course, ‘proper’ winter conditions were in place further up on Crib y Ddysgl, in which case they had got themselves in a situation where fewer good choices were available. Did he have an axe? His mate certainly didn’t, and he appeared to be wearing approach shoes, which suggests no crampons.

https://www.eryri-npa.gov.uk/visiting/walking/ground-conditions/reports/2019-20/snowdon-warden36

Snow and ice at 750m the day before. Perhaps there had been a bit of a thaw to leave CG relatively snow free, but they would have had to pass over 1,000m to reach the top of the PYG track.

They did give him extra clothing, they spent ages putting things under him and then wrapped some kind of shelter around him. It’s no good stripping off and sitting there for 4 hours in freezing conditions mostly naked when the injured party is relying completely on you to get the emergency services to your precise location and to manage the situation. 4 people getting hypothermia would make no sense and since the guy got carried off the mountain still conscious obviously the extra clothing you speak of wasnt crucial to his survival.

It’s no good stripping off and sitting there for 4 hours in freezing conditions mostly naked

That’s why the person sacrificing the clothing then descends as I explained in my previous posts. They’d already called mountain rescue who weren’t going to fly a helicopter in those conditions so they knew the rescuers would be coming up the Pyg. A bonus, mountain rescue get someone to guide them to the victim.

Following a double open fracture of a member of our MTB club two of us headed off to meet the pompiers to guide them in. In different directions so we couldn’t possible miss them.

the extra clothing you speak of wasnt crucial to his survival

That we only know with hindsight.

It’s a hard watch, and I’m not a fan of him or his attitude, but I wouldn’t criticise him for the way he dealt with it at the time, every person reacts differently in that kind of situation. If he is – as he claims – an ML, the video doesn’t reflect well on him or his business to me. Other people’s mileage may vary.

I do think it’s useful to pick it apart as a learning point for next time/learning for other people, though. I’m not an ML and don’t know the area that well, so I’m not qualified to comment on the ground. I’d have to focus on the first aid part, where I’d be asking a few questions:
– Head injury and (later discovered) scrape marks on his lower back point at things I’d want immobilising pretty quickly. Even if you don’t monopolise a person to do an actual C-spine immobilisation, there seemed to be more movement going on than I’d be happy with.
– The getting him off the floor was good, but as per other people’s questions, query on the spare clothes thing.
– If that was a KISU/group shelter, even a two person, why did they wrap it round him rather than getting in it with him and using it properly?

Interesting that the overall tone on the UKC site is “There but for the grace of God” whereas here it’s much more damning

I beg to differ.

There’s a couple of folk surprised at the weather.

Most of us were pretty positive about him and the group being there in that day, and respected his reaction to the incident.

My questioning is much wider issue – the guy is purporting to be a professional Mountain Leader and “guide”. That brings with it a broader responsibility and an expectation of a good standard of skill, experience and a demonstration of values commensurate with a holistic view of mountain leading. All three seem to be lacking in the few videos I watched. A view clearly reflected by the wider outdoor learning / adventure sports community in North Wales judging by online. So yes, I’m now being judgemental of the guy.

https://what3words.com/daring.lion.race

Too panicky/shouty/putting themselves in further danger. Calm and reassure the victim.
Too much spinal movement for my liking.

Interesting video. I’m an ex ski patroller and went partway to my guiding quals but was diverted into an IT career! Very interesting to watch and actually quite a useful video to show what panic does in situations like that. I genuinely thought 3 of them would end up heating themselves on the way down.
Hindsight is wonderful, I’ve seen CG and my wife has been up it a few times
So I won’t comment on that aspect other than a cold wet windy day on that aspect is always going to be a challenge. The immediate response to the fall was scary, absolutely no need to charge off and fall down that slope to join the chap that did. I’m not particularly sure he even knew exactly where he was anyway but slick probably hard underfoot conditions and a bit of panic. They did a reasonable job in the casualty but FFs don’t empty your pack like a jumble sale in a windy location as you easily lose everything. Sobering and if he’s an ML then I want my money back !

**** idiots.

To quote top gun ‘the encounter was a victory but we’ve shown it as an example of what not to do’

Desperately bad decision making start to finish, not worthy of an experienced walker, much less any sort of mountain leader.

So there is a probable damaged spine. And danger of hypothermia. Obvious broken bones. A head injury. As far as we can tell from the video no loss of consciousness took place, thought not certain. He’s breathing, coherent, and feels pain in his legs, arms, and stomach.

Lets assume we have a well stocked set of back packs, and three people on site. MR are on their way, they know our location, but we’ve no idea how long they may take to get to us.

What would the text book approach be?

I don’t think there is as much criticism of how he dealt with the casualty, given the circumstances. He was correct to identify hypothermia as a major danger. The casualty was conscious and talking, but possibly unconscious previously and with an obvious head injury and lacerations to the back, so the possibility of spinal injury was clearly present. He could have taken some more care to protect the c-spine when moving him to place insulation under him, perhaps used his companions to try to immobilise the head/neck. No obvious signs of significant external blood loss, although he noted later that the bloke needed ‘several tranfusions’. Not a lot you can do about internal bleeding.

Don’t give ibuprofen/fluids.

Get the shelter up, and put bodies in it alongside the casualty to aid warming.

although he noted later that the bloke needed ‘several tranfusions’

Did look like he had quite extensive surgery though

That…is a good point!

On a related note, Brave Dave has blatantly ripped off The Fast Show with his ‘aren’t Mountain Rescue brilliant’ piece to camera at the end. 🙂

Thank god the guy was ok

Well written post Hobo. People seem to have missed the fact that the guy who fell was nothing to do with Dave, not his mate/client. I think he dealt with the situation well.

Haha Frank. Sorry I deleted it because I struggle with the fallout. Anyhow it now looks like you are complimenting my simple thank god message. Thanks

V good Hobo, agreed.

I’ve been in very serious situations with an injured fellow rider twice, and both times I don’t know where they **** my head was. The adrenalin was off the charts.

If I’d been go pro-ing it, even though I’ve been through stacks of training, I would no doubt have looked a right idiot.

I’ll bite. Sure others might pick this apart or shoot me down, but hey ho.

Textbook: Dunno, never written one.

What I’d try and do if I was him and the guy had shot past me on his bum at a rate of knots:
– Turn off the damn video camera and get down to him carefully.
– Rather than pack random bits around him, do the very basic first: tuck a single windproof layer over to start with. Carefully.
– Get all three currently uninjured people in the same place and use your bodies as a bit of a windshield if possible. One phones 999, One goes through our packs to work out what we’ve got, One (me) does a proper assessment of injuries, not just ‘what hurts mate?’ Lots of debate on the UKC thread about how to do this – DRABC is a start, you’re in a Dangerous location, he’s Responsive and therefore has AB and C for now at least, so it’s working out what injuries there are and what’s most serious, risk to life or preventing us from any other form of extraction (and/or if there’s a pressing reason why we would need to extract – loose rock above etc). I’d be starting from the head down, looking for obvious bleeds and breaks mainly. Scribble the time of incident, time of assessment, a roughly-taken pulse and conscious level on a piece of paper or the back of my hand.
– Injury check done, kit assessed and MRT are on their way but unsure of duration so it’s ‘get comfortable’ time. The head injury and scraped back say ‘spinal injury’ to me so while I’ve done the check the others have worked out what’s best under him, what over him and what retained just in case.
– One (probably me) takes the head for a C-Spine immobilisation and we log roll the casualty onto one of the other two’s knees as best we can. The third lays stuff out to get the casualty insulated from the ground and we log roll him back onto it, then layer over the top of him.
– That KISU/Group shelter comes out and goes over all of us if possible. We’re now out of the wind and while it’ll be a bit noisy and flappy it’ll warm up relatively quickly.
– We make him as comfortable as possible with extra packing where needed to stabilise his head and neck and immobilise the leg.
– No-one dumps clothes they’re currently wearing, and they keep something back at least for themselves. If needed, one stays with the casualty in the shelter while the the other two move together to a point on the path to flag down assistance and/or guide MRT in.
– We monitor the casualty. Take pulse and concious levels every 15mins – as a distraction exercise if needs be. Keep chatting to casualty. Have cup of tea and sandwich if time allows – no food or anything other than water for casualty.
– MRT arrive. I hand all details over to someone more qualified than me, the comprehensive list of vitals they probably don’t need, and answer any questions they might have. Help if they ask me to help but mainly stand around feeling like a bit of a spare part as they take over.
– We follow MRT instructions and get off the hill, have a nice cup of tea and a sit down, and probably spend the next week replaying everything in my head to try and work out what I could have done better.

How’s that?

Thanks Pyro, Looks like a nice plan of action.

FWIW, I wasn’t trying to inflame the argument about if BD did a good or bad job. I was trying to get some use out of the discussion, and learn from the collective STW knowledge base. Much better to analyse the situation sat in front of a keyboard, and understand the considerations and possible options.

Hopefully never need any of it, but using the video as a tool for learning seems like a pretty good use.

When I first saw the video, I was a bit ambivalent about how they treated him re: potential back/neck injuries.

Obviously, it’d be a complete waste of time taking care of his back if he died of hypothermia… P’raps the ‘right’ answer is somewhere between what they did and text book.

My main bugbear is the decision to be where they were. Management of risk starts with accepting/transfering/mitigating or avoiding. For me, wintry conditions and very high winds (unless completely unforeseen/unforecast) means, for their group, they should have chosen something else to do (i.e. avoiding).

I’ve even ended up waddling up to Aber Falls on vile days when up for the weekend. That’s with the motivation of a 400 mile round trip etc.

Sometimes, you just need to alter the plan.

Thanks Pyro, Looks like a nice plan of action.

Cheers, though I would caveat it with the usual “Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth…” (thank you Mike Tyson for that one…) 🙂

It wasn’t perfect but the bottom line is they looked after him till MR got there, and he survived

It’s hard in the heat of the moment, all the stuff you’re supposed to remember just falls out in the pressure

It does highlight how you need to have the right kit with you. His FAK was rather large, far larger than what I carry.

Bothy bag was a good shout, although I’d have put that over the group and got inside with him.

I usually carry a sit mat so that could go under him, spare clothes is a bit of a killer. I always have a warm layer but standing around cold and wet it’s easy to get dangerously cold yourself, rarely have one to donate.

I wonder if the bothy bag was a little two person sitting one? If so I don’t see how he could have used it as the casualty couldn’t sit up. Unless there was room for all four (one laid down) then I think he did the best he could with it. He needed to be able to monitor the casualty and maintain sight with the other two.

Of the three people on the mountain with him, Dave seemed to be the most clued up. I guess Ed is grateful Dave was there.

Given that there are 2 pages of probably well meaning, but still contradictory advice on just this thread, it’s no wonder people get confused and don’t know what to do for the best.

Of the three people on the mountain with him, Dave seemed to be the most clued up

The noisiest alpha male for sure, the others didn’t have much chance to make decisions. He wouldn’t be the one I’d choose to climb with, the other guys were much calmer and methodical. There’s been some curious editing of that vid. He didn’t turn the camera on when he was sliding down.

I’ve found people remarkably calm in bad situations, they tend to go into autopilot and get on with what they’ve learned they’re supposed to do. Both as a victim and rescuer.

I’m convinced the running go-pro was an influence, a negative one.

The potential for spinal was the only **** up in my opinion. Yes, get stuff under him to get him off the ground, but if you’ve just seen someone tomahawk past you on steep, rocky ground and they’ve got significant back and head lacerations, then try and protect the spine as best you can. Everything is a compromise under those conditions but but there was a big red flag that they seemed to ignore.

I’m convinced the running go-pro was an influence, a negative one.

I think you’re right. I’ve just re-watched some of it. As you say, some big gaps in editing and I’m sure some reactions were for the benefit of viewers…

I’m interested to know whether the people who are dissing him for his handling of the incident are doing it from a position of experience or not…

I’ve rescued a few people off mountains and been in situation where I failed to revive someone who had taken a huge fall and had his brains leak…

Sorry, too much detail. Trying to stop people from dying is stressful and difficult. If you’ve not tried it then pause before passing judgement.